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kmh42

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I refer both of you to my first post in this thread when I said it was "neither historical nor logical." CKII is an historical simulation, therefore it should approximate history, in a way which is logical and easily understood by the player. To be clear, what I am saying is that not that it should always be "history first" but equally the game should avoid anachronism and mechanics that are blatantly counter-historical. Generally speaking there should be a way to "approximate" history if you design all the mechanics to works together.
I understand this view but when I look at the game with all this years, patches and DLCs I get the impression the devs never enact this way of thinking on them self. This leads to your problem to be never satisfied with certain features/mechanics in game. I choose to take the game as such and don't take it too historical accurate for my mental health.
The "Gavelkind" law fails both those tests, it's demonstrably nothing like historical practise of gavelkind and it's counter-intuitive in the way it assigns land and titles. On top of that it can lead to consistently odd behaviour from the AI and gamey tactics from the player. Giving less land to the liege creates a weak liege with one or more vassals stronger than himself with a claim on his titles. This provokes both player and AI (player more than AI) to make an internal land grab, either revoking titles or just straight up murdering their kin. That could still happen if gavelkind worked logically but it would be less likely.
I wouldn't define it as counter-intuitive rather than complicated and bad explained. In the moment you understand it you can act accordingly. Other could say gamey.
The AI doesn't understand succession at all, Gavelkind in particular.

What would a good Gavelkind succession look like in your opinion. Maybe I can integrate it in the CCIL.
 
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kmh42

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I've found a new bit of weirdness. When the heir is landed, it's apparently possible for lesser heirs to get his pre-existing land if it's not inside the primary title's area.
Are you sure? Other question, how did the main heir obtain this land. ASAIK you can not give him land as freely or is this only in EG?
 

kmh42

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He was landed before he predecessor even had the titles. He somehow lost all his previous titles on inheritance.
father1 had son1 (main heir), son2 and son3,... . son1 has already land. father1 dies and gavelkind happens. all titles get distributed between the sons but son1 losses his previous acquired land to the other sons and is stuck now with the primary title of father1. Do I understand this right?
 

SigurdStormhand

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I understand this view but when I look at the game with all this years, patches and DLCs I get the impression the devs never enact this way of thinking on them self. This leads to your problem to be never satisfied with certain features/mechanics in game. I choose to take the game as such and don't take it too historical accurate for my mental health.

I wouldn't define it as counter-intuitive rather than complicated and bad explained. In the moment you understand it you can act accordingly. Other could say gamey.
The AI doesn't understand succession at all, Gavelkind in particular.

What would a good Gavelkind succession look like in your opinion. Maybe I can integrate it in the CCIL.

I think if you look at the original CKII it's trying to approximate history at a given start date, as the game has evolved it has moved towards trying to "balance" the game, especially by curtailing "gamey" behaviour on the part of the player. Then you have Conclave which seems to operate under "rule of cool" where it introduces a number of anachronisms - like curtailing voting on changes in the law to a small "Privy" Council and allowing for an almost gender-neutral society more than half a millenia before this was even considered over most of Europe.

As to Gavelkind being Counter-Intuitive, it definitely is. It makes the primary heir weaker than his brothers, and it is named after an historical succession law but doesn't follow the basis of said law. The Devs have set it up in such a way that it's needlessly complicated, which is why the AI doesn't understand it.

Personally, I think the law should operate on the historical principle.

That means, first and foremost, an equal division of the demesne among legitimate sons. If there are holding left over then they should be assigned to elder sons first. The eldest son should get the top title, then younger sons should get lower titles. If possible the second son should have a demesne and a title outside the de jure of the eldest son and so on. If there are three sons and three titles of equal rank to inherit then the realm should be equally split (something the current law does correctly, the only time it really is logical or historical).

The first 50% of the treasury should be split equally, the remainder should be split among younger sons, excluding the primary heir. It was quite common for rulers to give younger sons money in lieu of land, indeed Henry I only got cash from William the Conquerer whilst William Rufus got England and Robert Curthose got Normandy.

That's how I think it should work, that's actually "fair", it should reduce the incidence of the AI going for the eldest son or the eldest son feeling so insecure he tries to revoke his brothers' lands. At the same time giving younger sons a bigger cash lump sum makes it easier for them to either upgrade their new demesne or hire mercs if they want to oppose their older brother. If you were at your demesne limit when you died then the younger sons should now be "Powerful Vassals" in Conclave terms, meaning they'll probably get seats on the Council and without conclave they should still be powerful enough to be Faction Leaders if they choose, or to command significant votes in the Assembly.
 
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AwesomeKeith

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father1 had son1 (main heir), son2 and son3,... . son1 has already land. father1 dies and gavelkind happens. all titles get distributed between the sons but son1 losses his previous acquired land to the other sons and is stuck now with the primary title of father1. Do I understand this right?
Essentially, move around a couple relations but yeah, that's what happened.
 

kmh42

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Update: Primary heir inherited the Kingdom of Denmark, secondary heir inherited both Norway and Sweden... He pressed all claims, savegame is ruined.
e31.jpg
 

kmh42

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It makes the primary heir weaker than his brothers
Not in my opinion. A king title has ore potential then a Duchy or a couple of Counties (in player hands. [Let's pretend the AI doesn't exist in this discussion because it is so terrible stupid in the simplest tasks in CKII]).
The Devs have set it up in such a way that it's needlessly complicated, which is why the AI doesn't understand it.
It is not complicated. It just requires a certain situation. When a ruler has a set of Kingdoms and Duchies and Counties in the right de jure areas the lands get distributed very well. The thing gets complicated when de jure setups get ignored. I don't see that your system is capable of handeling such situations better then the current situation.
The first 50% of the treasury should be split equally, the remainder should be split among younger sons, excluding the primary heir. It was quite common for rulers to give younger sons money in lieu of land, indeed Henry I only got cash from William the Conquerer whilst William Rufus got England and Robert Curthose got Normandy.
The money thing is a good point. It's really strange that only the main heir gets all the money.
 

SigurdStormhand

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Not in my opinion. A king title has ore potential then a Duchy or a couple of Counties (in player hands. [Let's pretend the AI doesn't exist in this discussion because it is so terrible stupid in the simplest tasks in CKII]).

It is not complicated. It just requires a certain situation. When a ruler has a set of Kingdoms and Duchies and Counties in the right de jure areas the lands get distributed very well. The thing gets complicated when de jure setups get ignored. I don't see that your system is capable of handeling such situations better then the current situation.

The money thing is a good point. It's really strange that only the main heir gets all the money.

A King title has potential - but you'll note we have another thread going at the moment about how King0titles are hostage to factions right now. To defend against factions you need a large demesne that provides for levies, cash and retinue cap. Gavelkind actively works to reduce that.

If it "requires a certain situation" it's complicated - you can try to slice it however you want but if you need to be "preparing" your whole life for your death by making sure you conquere a lot of land outside your home duchy and create two new duchies just so your heir isn't hobbled when you die that means the system is complicated.

If you make a mistake handing out land when you're in gavelkind you can completely screw yourself over in the next generation. Yes, my system might lead to bordergore but bordergore is an aesthetic thing in the main (it's also very historical) and the AI needs to be more laid back about it and more forgiving.
 
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kmh42

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A King title has potential - but you'll note we have another thread going at the moment about how King0titles are hostage to factions right now. To defend against factions you need a large demesne that provides for levies, cash and retinue cap. Gavelkind actively works to reduce that.
It's more about elective succession everywhere, factions are just one part of this problem.
But of course a crown dose not guarantee power. That is why I said 'potential'.
If it "requires a certain situation" it's complicated - you can try to slice it however you want but if you need to be "preparing" your whole life for your death by making sure you conquere a lot of land outside your home duchy and create two new duchies just so your heir isn't hobbled when you die that means the system is complicated.
That's true but there a so many possibilities of titles and de jure setups that it's fairly impossible to find a system that works always. You suggestion doesn't really convinced me because the only change I spotted is the amount of counties which get dealt out to the main heir. It also doesn't covers the problem of understanding by the (noob) player.
If you make a mistake handing out land when you're in gavelkind you can completely screw yourself over in the next generation. Yes, my system might lead to bordergore but bordergore is an aesthetic thing in the main (it's also very historical) and the AI needs to be more laid back about it and more forgiving.
You are not making friend here with these statements. There are some many bordergore haters out there. I am non of them.

I think we two won't agree on that matter. We have a different few on gavelkind and see different problems. I am OK with that.
 

Czert

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You can't kill your own children without gamey actions that border on cheating.
yes, killing own childs for purpose of gavelking is very gamey, but hey some players love to play caligula style.(why i cant bonk my sister..etc), i jusr wonder why no one bringed up why i cant sleep with my mom,, oidipus style.
 

deezee

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I think that often medieval nobles were willing to take everything their brother had - Henry I being a prime example.

In principle, however, I think that - yes - if it was not possible to divide the realm then people would expect to get an equal share of land, and the concept of a patriarchal society does include a "father of the household", even if that's actually your brother. In this period land is wealth, land means horses and sheep and cattle, and taxes from tenants. Gavelkind is the equal division of wealth, not title.

If you want to argue that its WAD and therefore that's how it should be fine. However, I gave you several examples of division of a realm in the medieval period /division of a King's titles and the wikipedia link to how Gavelkind actually worked in real life; the way it works in-game is not historical.

Present me some evidence of this sort of partitioning in Europe where a noble got "top title" but his brothers got more land to placate them. I hazard that you will find no examples - such an arrangement would destablise realm by weakening the liege in favour of vassals with a claim on his titles. In reality the eldest son usually got the lion's share so that he could better overawe his brothers.

I think you are right that it is not historically accurate. The key problem is that a historically accurate Gavelkind is extremely difficult to code. Each succession under the real Gavelkind essentially had to broker a unique settlement, with key guiding principles - which would often result in the creation of new titles, in game terms. In order to avoid having to do this, Paradox simply divide up existing top-tier titles equally, and then distribute counties in a way that creates some semblance of a "fair" settlement, even if it is not "fair" in a way that historical figures would accept.
 
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SigurdStormhand

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It's more about elective succession everywhere, factions are just one part of this problem.
But of course a crown dose not guarantee power. That is why I said 'potential'.

That's true but there a so many possibilities of titles and de jure setups that it's fairly impossible to find a system that works always. You suggestion doesn't really convinced me because the only change I spotted is the amount of counties which get dealt out to the main heir. It also doesn't covers the problem of understanding by the (noob) player.

You are not making friend here with these statements. There are some many bordergore haters out there. I am non of them.

I think we two won't agree on that matter. We have a different few on gavelkind and see different problems. I am OK with that.

I just played Basil of Makedon this evening in order to demonstrate how Defensive Pacts are whacked ( managed to get to just over 75% Threat by declaring on a string on Muslim Dukes when the game started) anyway, I had to switch on Council War declaration because the "Overthrow Ruler" Faction was getting close to 100%.

Had I pressed my luck it's entirely possible I could have ended up a Duke under my half-brother whom I had made a Strategos. I pushed it as far as I could, and I'd fought all the wars I wanted to for at least a decade, it's entirely likely a less experienced player would have fallen to that faction, and even more likely the AI would have. I was at my demesne limit of 8, not a new King with a Demesne of two or three after a Gavelkind.

You are correct that my system is very similar to the current setup - the difference is that it will try to assign everything equally, and assign a remainder to the primary heir - not his younger brothers. That may not sound like a huge difference, but it preferences stability by giving the better share to the new liege.

As far as Border Gore goes, it's not desirable to be sure - and I spend a fair amount of time trying to prevent it but it was and should be a natural result of Gavelkind. I'm not going to lose sleep over messy borders, to be sure, because it is primarily an aesthetic thing when everything is contained within one Dynasty bound by mutual alliance.