Why Jump Jets are a Dominate Force in MP (and example lance)

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SpeedKatMcNasty

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Hello Everyone, SpeedKatMcNasty here (which is my Steam name if anyone wants to play MP)

Ive racked up about 41 hours in game so far, with about 30 of it being in MP (plus Beta). In that time, I've gone through many different lance types and styles until I finally settled onto one i really like. My personal belief is that this is the best current "meta".

As you might have guessed from the title, this lance relies heavily on jump jets and the maneuverability they give you. Jump Jets in my opinion are one of the most underrated pieces of equipment currently in our arsenals. Many, many times, i have seen streamers rush to dismount them and replace them with a heatsink or two due to their "uselessness". However, JJs are anything but underpowered and are actually rather game breaking.

The power of Jump Jets lies in their single action maneuverability. What i mean by this, is that its often possible to move the same distance with a jump as it is with a sprint. However with a sprint, you give up your ability to fire after, chose your exact facing (spread that damage while you close), and most importantly brace. See, with a full distance jump you will almost always obtain 4 evasion chevrons. For those who don't know, an evasion chevron reduces the enemies hit chance by 5%, thus theoretically reducing your damage taken by 5%. Now after jumping full distance and getting 20% damage reduction, you can then brace and get another 50% damage reduction, thus giving you 60% (theoretical) damage reduction and a sprint move in a single turn. LRMs/PPCs are useless against you, and you can be in effective firing range of them in a turn or two after first contact, regardless of terrain. Closing distance is no problem, and you laugh at LRM boating corner campers, thus negating the entire current supposed "meta".

______________________________________________________

So the lance I'm going to focus on here is is for the "War" C-Bill setting, however its quite easy to scale this down to "Battle" if you like.

Lance at a glance: Thunderbolt x2, Vindicator, Firestarter

Thunderbolt 5SE - 4 ML, 2 SRM6, 3 Machine Guns, 4 JJ, 7 Heatsinks

C316E4ACDD5ACE968FDE05F4C6CB9A83641EE4BA



Commentary: What an excellent design the Thunderbolt is. Just look at those bars in the top left of the lab. Great protection, high firepower, and heat efficient. Your only lacking trait here is range, which using your Jump Jets is no issue. Make sure to use your left arm as a shield (rotate!). Your DFA is also no slouch, use it when you're overheated to give yourself a turn to cool down while still doing massive damage.

Vindicator 1R - 4 ML, 1 SRM6, 2 Machine Guns, 4 JJ, 5 Heatsinks

F2A630C66038D4C0D9B760309EE772429AAC485F



Commentary: By far my favorite mech in the game. Its basically a smaller, even more efficient Thunderbolt. Extreme armor protection for its weight, good damage, and even more heat efficient. An absolute workhorse for the cost.

Firestarter H - 6 Flamers, 6 JJ

AEB1089F04D95E287F6F2E3FA03BF6CE5C48CE20



Commentary: Nothing really out of the ordinary here. MLs were dropped for more Flamers, armor, and Jump Jets. Its basically impossible to kill if used correctly, and I've outlined its specific use in detail in the strategy section below.

Mech Warriors - Wildfire, Buckshot, Apex, Paradise

27F908DCA0999ECA7A0973C3C7E62036EAE5AC20



Commentary: Again, pretty standard. Only exception is Paradise, whos special ability use with the Firestarter I've outlined in the strategy section.

Overall Strategy:

First turns - Find the enemy lance as quickly as possible. Jump max distance towards their starting area and brace every turn until first contact. Never, ever, under any circumstance sprint anywhere. If you need to move somewhere, Jump and brace. Keep your lance together at all times, and by together i mean in adjacent points. Remember you want to concentrate your firepower, not spread out all over the map.

First contact - Your number 1 priority here is to find out what mechs they have, and which contact each is. Your ultimate goal is to pick the best target, and you cant do that if you have idea what you're going after. Always reserve and see if they move their mechs, then take careful notes on which is their light, medium and heavy radar blip. Use your firestarter here if you have to, as its heavily armored, hard to hit and can jump halfway across the map. Reserve it to the Assault phase, jump it into the middle of their team and brace, take notes on the enemy, then jump back when the turn cycles.

Once you know whats what, you have to pick your target. If you got lucky, the enemy has a mech separated from the others. You're going to have to use your judgment here though. Many separated targets are worthless to chase after, like a light mech you wont be able to kill in one turn, a PPC Vindicator, or something like that. I cant tell you what to do here. If you have no good targets, then always go after the mech that has the most firepower. Keep in mind that this is not always the heaviest mech. Hunchbacks and Trebuchets for example are almost certainly not the heaviest enemy mech on the "War" C-Bill setting, but they will rip you to shreds if you don't take them out fast.

Once you're Engaged - Now that you've found your target and decided to engage you need to jump in. Always aim for the back of the mech. Many players are surprised by how far mechs can jump, and so often you can get 2 or even 3 mechs in to back shot on turn 1 of the fight, winning the match for you right there with an early kill. Sometimes though, you're going to have to jump one turn into the firing line before you can get a good back shot on the following turn. Don't worry about this too much, Jump to get 4 evasion, then brace and weather the storm with minimal damage. Reserve you movement as much as you can. Sometimes your opponent will get greedy and move too close making them an easy target, where as they wouldn't have had you moved earlier.

The firestarter is a special case. Use your firestarter to harass the strongest enemy mech that your big 3 aren't currently fighting. Always keep their #2 mech hot enough to either have to melee or do nothing. Use your pilot skill to its maximum effect by reserving the firestarter to the Assault Phase, then jumping it in and flaming, then flaming again in the light phase and jumping out. You are nearly guaranteed a shutdown with this tactic, at no risk to the firestarter, and shutdowns are horrible. They are the worst thing that can happen to your mech.

Till the End - Back shot, back shot, back shot, until they're dizzy from spinning around. Don't worry too much about your rear armor, its very strong and your firestarter should have their #2 mech shutdown, leaving them with little firepower. You should be able to take out a mech every other turn, possibly even in 1 turn with some RNG luck and a rear shot with your big 3 all at once. I've found so far that their is little counter to this tactic, and have used it effectively again and again.

____________________________________________________________________

Thats my case for Jump Jets being considered a meta contender. What did you think? Any changes to the example lance? Any obvious counters to Jump Jets you can think of? Let me know down below.
 
Last edited:

OathOfFealty

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JJ were and are still powerful since jumping gives you evasion pips and, when finished jumping, let's you still do an action. Thus it is superior to sprinting. Additionally you can do DFA, overcome obstacles, jump to higher terrain and sometimes even cover more ground than with sprinting ... it ONLY comes with a price of heat and I am happy to pay it. I had and still have some arguments against the current way JJs work but with the subtle changes to the combat system since the beta it's a bit better now. That said I widely use JJs if possible.
 

Kharille

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Used them a lot in mechcommander. Helps you maintain facing and also allows you to move behind mountains. Pretty amazing and I'm using them all the time. Sometimes I can just jump behind a hill and almost avoid all attacks completely.
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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JJ were and are still powerful since jumping gives you evasion pips and, when finished jumping, let's you still do an action. Thus it is superior to sprinting. Additionally you can do DFA, overcome obstacles, jump to higher terrain and sometimes even cover more ground than with sprinting ... it ONLY comes with a price of heat and I am happy to pay it. I had and still have some arguments against the current way JJs work but with the subtle changes to the combat system since the beta it's a bit better now. That said I widely use JJs if possible.
Exactly. The ability to cover a giant distance, get 4 evasion chevrons, and then brace at the end (or shoot someone in the back), is extremely strong and hugely underrated. Not to mention that DFAs are monstrously strong on their own, and even more so if you combine that with some support weapons.
 

Diedel

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JJ were and are still powerful since jumping gives you evasion pips and, when finished jumping, let's you still do an action. Thus it is superior to sprinting. Additionally you can do DFA, overcome obstacles, jump to higher terrain and sometimes even cover more ground than with sprinting ... it ONLY comes with a price of heat and I am happy to pay it. I had and still have some arguments against the current way JJs work but with the subtle changes to the combat system since the beta it's a bit better now. That said I widely use JJs if possible.

I do wonder what the goal/reason is that they removed the to hit penalty for moving/jumping and attacking that the TT has, which only leaves heat as a penalty for moving/jumping.
 

Domfluff

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I'm really happy with how Jump Jets have been implemented. They are really strong, but that's tonnage which you're not spending on weapons. Evasion pips can be stripped away, and the heat penalties are severe (4 JJ = 30 heat, so you're baseline heat neutral. Jenners can jump + alpha strike, but they're hideously vulnerable for a few turns afterwards).

They're also a strong counter to LRM spam. Jumping and bracing allows you to close the distance on LRM boats with minimal damage.

Jump Jets w/o the tabletop to-hit penalties mean that there are roles for the light strikers and skirmishing mechs that basically don't exist otherwise.

I see it as a win all around really, it opens up meaningful choices.
 

mork77

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I allways put the maximum amount of jumpjets on my mechs. I almost never use move, only jump in combat. and i reposition my mechs every round. depending on your weapons, you can keep this up 5-10 turns without overheating, and without taking damage.

And if my mechs should be hit, the armor is maxed out too.
 

KDubya

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I do wonder what the goal/reason is that they removed the to hit penalty for moving/jumping and attacking that the TT has, which only leaves heat as a penalty for moving/jumping.

To make the game more active.

Currently you have a choice of going stationary turret style with Bulwark OR you can go active with Evasion and Jump Jets and constantly move to a better firing angle.

In the Beta there were mods that increased sight distance and added penalties for moving and firing. The game ended up becoming SniperTech as the best tactic was to Bulwark tank with long range weapons and shoot each other from long range. Even the Beta AI would do a similar tactic as it'd calculate the odds of hitting before moving and after and it'd come to the conclusion that staying still was a better plan.
 

OathOfFealty

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Exactly. The ability to cover a giant distance, get 4 evasion chevrons, and then brace at the end (or shoot someone in the back), is extremely strong and hugely underrated. Not to mention that DFAs are monstrously strong on their own, and even more so if you combine that with some support weapons.
I do wonder what the goal/reason is that they removed the to hit penalty for moving/jumping and attacking that the TT has, which only leaves heat as a penalty for moving/jumping.
There's still a lot of details that could be added to the game like for instance the terrain is currently not hazardous to mechs at all ... thus I also could see a penalty to being stable after a jump ... it just seems to easy to do it. Especially when doing a DFA. ... I can't remember TT and if there was a pilot-roll you'd have to do when jumping.
 

Justin Kase

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jumping requires a far hihger to hit penelty balance wise

I'd like to see a higher to hit penalty for jumping and a bonus for standing still/rotating.
 

tobias.mb

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i have seen streamers rush to dismount them
The streamers I've watched all played the campaign. And there the only problematic missions (for me at least) are the ones where you face 8 mechs at the same time. In those situations you need firepower not mobility (imho). It makes sense to run without JJ in the campaign.
 

Marcus Smythe

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The streamers I've watched all played the campaign. And there the only problematic missions (for me at least) are the ones where you face 8 mechs at the same time. In those situations you need firepower not mobility (imho). It makes sense to run without JJ in the campaign.
A good point. I think a lot of the current green/purple debate over missiles, and some other mechanics, comes down to Campaign vs PvP, and stage in the campaign.

Campaign is strongly affected by the need to kill a lot of enemies very fast, and by the impact of called shots (plus the fact that the ‘spread damage’ penalty that missiles suffer is largely negated by called shots)

By late campaign, missile boats taking turns spending Morale to target CT (and knockdown) followed by a second LRM boat killing, trying to murder 1-2 Assaults a turn before the 8 of them overwhelm your 4, defines the game for me. A modder’s desire to see things changed, and what he wants changed, will largely be defind by whether hes playng PvP, Early/Mid Campaign, or Late Campaign.

Though I’ll maintain that Energy Weapons, espc the big ones, need love in any environment. :)
 

OathOfFealty

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Pedroig

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Your TDR design is rubbish, your left arm is not a shield, it is your weakest point, even weaker than the head. So simply lining up on your left side, your single Vindicator will be over halfway through the TDR's left torso armour. A second one leaves your TDR with 2 ML and DFA. If you take into consideration that your "JJ's uber alles" approach will be the meta, that means you cannot "hide" your weak left side, so within 4 turns of engagement both your TDR's are 2 ML DFA wannabes which can't catch up to the Jumping opposition to DFA in the first place.

LRM20 with Breaching shot is going to be the biggest threat to your Jump and Brace advancement technique.

And for a little "out of the box" thinking, whilst you are Jumping and Bracing, always land facing away from the expected enemy location, amour not used is armour wasted, and once you stop bracing and start shooting, your frontal armour will be near pristine...
 

Leone - Raid Leader

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Actually hits to destroyed locations are spread into the armour of the next. So, the dead arm works. But yeah, these tactics actually work well enough in the campaign mode. The midrange to brawl set up is just that good, even against hordes of slavering ai mechs.

~Leone
 

Pedroig

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Actually hits to destroyed locations are spread into the armour of the next. So, the dead arm works. But yeah, these tactics actually work well enough in the campaign mode. The midrange to brawl set up is just that good, even against hordes of slavering ai mechs.

~Leone
I accounted for 100% LA hits followed by less than 100% LT hits, the maths still come up the same you have a LT with a total value of 275 taking 148 damage, that's discounting the MG so that's 196 per round, and if the Tbolt is bracing and not firing back that means 4 rounds it is dead...
 

xMer

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It kinda doesn't change root of issue and yeah meta is about jumping around and focusing fire with jumps rather than using unarmored hand. Advantage of JJ is sufficient to cover up any minor flaws in mech design.

Jump Jets get strongly buffed compared to TT (removed -3 hit penalty) and ability to brace after jumping
run was rebranded to sprint and extremely nerfed:
- unable to shot after running (which made all 'runner' mechs obsolete)
- a lot of slow-downs on terrain (without granting protection)
- unable to plan exact path, sometime my mechs go over geothermal even if they have sufficient move to go around.
- unable to brace after moving pretty much same distance as with JJ
 

SpeedKatMcNasty

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Your TDR design is rubbish, your left arm is not a shield, it is your weakest point, even weaker than the head. So simply lining up on your left side, your single Vindicator will be over halfway through the TDR's left torso armour. A second one leaves your TDR with 2 ML and DFA. If you take into consideration that your "JJ's uber alles" approach will be the meta, that means you cannot "hide" your weak left side, so within 4 turns of engagement both your TDR's are 2 ML DFA wannabes which can't catch up to the Jumping opposition to DFA in the first place.

LRM20 with Breaching shot is going to be the biggest threat to your Jump and Brace advancement technique.

And for a little "out of the box" thinking, whilst you are Jumping and Bracing, always land facing away from the expected enemy location, amour not used is armour wasted, and once you stop bracing and start shooting, your frontal armour will be near pristine...
I'm not really sure why you would armor an arm with no weapons in it. Once it's destroyed, its taken out of the hit tables, maning that shots from the front actually have less chance to hit your left side. Armoring that arm means taking away back armor, which means that it would be far more efficient just shooting you in the back anyway.

Actually brace does not work if you are attacked from behind. The tooltip specifically says front and side armor. Besides, you need all that back armor for when you jump into the enemy team and get back shots on them (thus showing your back). It's not worth using it to abosrb damage.

Lrm 20 with breaching shot seems like a good idea, but 2 issues with that. First, breaching shot is a gunnery skill. Their are no high gunnery, high tactics pilots. Shooting missiles mostly is indirect fire, and thus your breaching shot Lrm 20 is likely not going to be very accurate unless at close range, which defeats the point of lrms. Second, a single lrm 20 is not very much damage, especially when spread out over your whole mech. A bigger threat is if they have 2 breaching shot PPCs on Vindicators or Cicada. Very hard to catch and do good reliable damage to you (and to hit chance penalty sucks).