Why isn't Dublin a CoT??

[GetSchwifty01]

Title, really.
Dublin was a massively important trading post, established by the Vikings, and was one of the most important cities in Ireland since it's founding. How come it isn't a Center of Trade?

 

[Banedon Runestar]

Likely because adding yet another CoT would make Ireland unbalanced to start in or it would disrupt the total power and relative draw in the English Channel trade node. Or it could be that while Dublin is an important trade site, the places that are already CoTs were just larger and more important.

 

[marcavis]

I suppose that the Ireland tag should have a mission that puts a CoT there, then.

 

[Maxxie42]

Ireland is part of the North Sea trade node, which is very poor. You'll notice if you play as Norway, Scotland or an Irish minor that money is quite tight until you manage to expand into the English Channel node.

In light of this, making Dublin - an English-owned province - a Center of Trade would reduce even further the trade income of these already dirt poor nations. And since the Irish minors are already in one of the more difficult starting positions in Europe, I can see why that might have been deemed undesirable by the devs.

 

[Oporto]

I suppose that the Ireland tag should have a mission that puts a CoT there, then.

Yes, it could be a reward for such missions as "Conquer Ireland" for England or "Beyond the Pale" for Irish minors: add a lvl.1 CoT or gain 100 adm. points if it already exists.
I proposed such idea to the devs some time ago, but they didn't react.

 

[XDarkSwordx]

By the way, how aboout adding Cot in Belfast via flavour event too?

 

[Oporto]

By the way, how aboout adding Cot in Belfast via flavour event too?

Seems like a good idea if the province of Ulster was developed high enough - both under English/British rule, or a part of free Ireland.

 

[Allahui]

Ireland is part of the North Sea trade node, which is very poor. You'll notice if you play as Norway, Scotland or an Irish minor that money is quite tight until you manage to expand into the English Channel node.

In light of this, making Dublin - an English-owned province - a Center of Trade would reduce even further the trade income of these already dirt poor nations. And since the Irish minors are already in one of the more difficult starting positions in Europe, I can see why that might have been deemed undesirable by the devs.

And why not mimic history where after a possible gaelic resurgence, England has a stronger and stronger hand over the eu4 time frame in Ireland?

 

[Maxxie42]

And why not mimic history where after a possible gaelic resurgence, England has a stronger and stronger hand over the eu4 time frame in Ireland?

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying. England already conquers all of Ireland in 99% of games. How much stronger of a hand could they have on it ?

 

[Allahui]

I'm afraid I don't understand what you're saying. England already conquers all of Ireland in 99% of games. How much stronger of a hand could they have on it ?

If you add a centre of trade in Ireland in the Pale, then you get that much closer to the true set up in 1444, not to mention the reduction in dev cost allowing Dublin to grow as much as it did during the time frame. The irish tags already benefit from being fully independent states in 1444 able to engage in diplomacy as far as their ally wishes rather than some sort of subject type to England (as France got appanages this patch would've been great choice by devs but alas)

 

[Oporto]

If you add a centre of trade in Ireland in the Pale, then you get that much closer to the true set up in 1444, not to mention the reduction in dev cost allowing Dublin to grow as much as it did during the time frame. The irish tags already benefit from being fully independent states in 1444 able to engage in diplomacy as far as their ally wishes rather than some sort of subject type to England (as France got appanages this patch would've been great choice by devs but alas)

So what's your point anyway? It's only beneficial to have CoT in Dublin for anyone. But actually, Meath tag can start as a junior partner of England and not a releasable.

 

[Allahui]

So what's your point anyway?

Adding Dublin CoT good

It's only beneficial to have CoT in Dublin for anyone.

That doesn't make grammatical sense. Its either beneficial for no one, or beneficial for everyone

But actually, Meath tag can start as a junior partner of England and not a releasable.

But why? The Pale was very much centrally ruled

 

[Oporto]

But why? The Pale was very much centrally ruled

Check this out:

Ireland should have an event like Greece

Where if no Irish tag exists then Ireland should get cores.

forum.paradoxplaza.com

 

[Allahui]

Check this out:

Ireland should have an event like Greece

Where if no Irish tag exists then Ireland should get cores.

forum.paradoxplaza.com

Cool and? The devs implemented it so that you can chain irish wars to spit out a united Ireland, that's still not an argument for at game start having MEATH of all things as a PU of England

 

[Oporto]

Cool and? The devs implemented it so that you can chain irish wars to spit out a united Ireland...

What do you mean?

 

[RobbieAB]

So what's your point anyway? It's only beneficial to have CoT in Dublin for anyone. But actually, Meath tag can start as a junior partner of England and not a releasable.

No. If you are going that route, make Ireland start as the junior partner under England with just the one province actually controlled.

The idea of what would be, at most, a county level title in Ireland being considered a PU to England while the substantial French titles are assumed to be wholly subsumed into England is silly.

The legal idea was they were Kings of Ireland due to papal sanction, but that Ireland was a separate kingdom. This is significantly different to the status of Wales which was nominally annexed into the kingdom of England much earlier. That legal theory lasted almost to the end of the game period, when Grattans Parliament approved the Act of Union.

Honestly, if we look at how fast Ireland gets absorbed, making it a PU might actually make it last longer, and could allow for the occasional “break free” scenario more often than the current setup. It might require some revision to the ideas for Ireland though, as they would really need to loose the “Irish republicanism” flavour as that would make no sense.

The current set up isn’t that bad though, once you allow for the pragmatic realities of the game.

 

[Oporto]

No. If you are going that route, make Ireland start as the junior partner under England with just the one province actually controlled.

The idea of what would be, at most, a county level title in Ireland being considered a PU to England while the substantial French titles are assumed to be wholly subsumed into England is silly.

The legal idea was they were Kings of Ireland due to papal sanction, but that Ireland was a separate kingdom. This is significantly different to the status of Wales which was nominally annexed into the kingdom of England much earlier. That legal theory lasted almost to the end of the game period, when Grattans Parliament approved the Act of Union.

Honestly, if we look at how fast Ireland gets absorbed, making it a PU might actually make it last longer, and could allow for the occasional “break free” scenario more often than the current setup. It might require some revision to the ideas for Ireland though, as they would really need to loose the “Irish republicanism” flavour as that would make no sense.

The current set up isn’t that bad though, once you allow for the pragmatic realities of the game.

Well, that's kind of a whole point of my proposal and that includes the suggestion I put before: while Meath is a junior partner of England, it can get claims on Irish minors and you conquer them, while adding provinces to Meath. After you conquer all of Ireland like that, both England and Meath get a flavour event "The Kingdom of Ireland" which transforms Meath into Ireland and of "Kingdom" rank - voila! All of Ireland has Irish cores and it's your junior PU partner.

 

[Allahui]

Well, that's kind of a whole point of my proposal and that includes the suggestion I put before: while Meath is a junior partner of England, it can get claims on Irish minors and you conquer them, while adding provinces to Meath. After you conquer all of Ireland like that, both England and Meath get a flavour event "The Kingdom of Ireland" which transforms Meath into Ireland and of "Kingdom" rank - voila! All of Ireland has Irish cores and it's your junior PU partner.

Okay so you've reinvented the wheel. All that youve changed between your proposal and what happens as of Domination's release, is that Meath is a starting tag instead of a releasable. But still, why Meath, a long dead kingdom is your object of desire to PU, why not just have it remain as province of England, seeing as the Pale was the one directly and strongly ruled part of Ireland for much of the lordships history until the tudour conquest, giving rise to the phrase "Beyond the Pale"

 

[Oporto]

Okay so you've reinvented the wheel. All that youve changed between your proposal and what happens as of Domination's release, is that Meath is a starting tag instead of a releasable. But still, why Meath, a long dead kingdom is your object of desire to PU, why not just have it remain as province of England, seeing as the Pale was the one directly and strongly ruled part of Ireland for much of the lordships history until the tudour conquest, giving rise to the phrase "Beyond the Pale"

I proposed it to simulate the "Lordship of Ireland" and Meath is more than suitable for that gameplay-wise: the "Irish Parliament" was held in Pale and the area was ruled by Plantagenet dynasty monarchs via Governor/Justiciar. It's supposed to represent a papal fief granted to Plantagenets before England turned to Protestantism and "Kingdom of Ireland" was created. To me it gives more flavour and depth into the area. If you find this whole matter as "reinventing the wheel" - suit yourself.

 

[Allahui]

No. If you are going that route, make Ireland start as the junior partner under England with just the one province actually controlled.

The idea of what would be, at most, a county level title in Ireland being considered a PU to England while the substantial French titles are assumed to be wholly subsumed into England is silly.

The previous treaties that tried to end the 100 years war had tried to turn Normandy, Maine, and Gascony into independent lordships or at least no fealty to the french king was required to hold them. However with Henry IV's invasion to claim the whole kingdom and then his untimely death would lead to the Valois attempting to reclaim the whole of France including said lordships. The provinces being fully English rather than PUs may also represent the increased centralisation of England over France, hence France having several vassals whilst England rules Mann, Gascony, Normandy, and Northern Wales as direct provinces not PUs. There's additionally the MPs that served from Gascony and Calais

The legal idea was they were Kings of Ireland due to papal sanction, but that Ireland was a separate kingdom.

The lordship of ireland was granted from papal sanction, the lordship of ireland being the overlord of the varied kingdoms of ireland, overlord even of any high king that might be raised by the irish. The Lordship of Ireland was inseparable from the crown of England by the time of eu4 but had Richard had heirs, John may have formed a seperate kingdom in Ireland.

This is significantly different to the status of Wales which was nominally annexed into the kingdom of England much earlier. That legal theory lasted almost to the end of the game period, when Grattans Parliament approved the Act of Union.

Nominally?

Honestly, if we look at how fast Ireland gets absorbed, making it a PU might actually make it last longer, and could allow for the occasional “break free” scenario more often than the current setup. It might require some revision to the ideas for Ireland though, as they would really need to loose the “Irish republicanism” flavour as that would make no sense.

The current set up isn’t that bad though, once you allow for the pragmatic realities of the game.

You can see England release Ireland as a tag now, it still wont break free unless England enforces religion at an odd time