Why is Zentrum is the Democratic Party for Germany?

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

I doing some research on an idea I had to spice up the German civil war, and discovered the SPD had been performing better than Zentrum had during the early 30s. So my question to the devs is why did you guys put Zentrum as the Democratic Party for Germany. Would SPD make more sense, as they were the second largest party in Germany behind the NSDAP.

 

[RichardOlcese]

I doing some research on an idea I had to spice up the German civil war, and discovered the SPD had been performing better than Zentrum had during the early 30s. So my question to the devs is why did you guys put Zentrum as the Democratic Party for Germany. Would SPD make more sense, as they were the second largest party in Germany behind the NSDAP.

Is this a Hearts of Iron question? Perhaps you just posted your thread in the wrong forum. Anyway, my I interest you in having Alf sprites for HoI units?

 

[AndrewT]

Moved to the right game forum.

 

[Dlin369]

Constitutional Monarchy Germany is run by fairly conservative military so Zentrum might be the better pick than the Social Democrats. Also the Zentrum from what I can tell were one of the last in Germany to be dissolved since the Social Dems got pretty viciously persecuted along with the Communists

also Konrad Adenauer was from the Zentrum prior to forming the Christian Democrats union, which probably contributes to them being the choice

 

[Xerberous]

I doing some research on an idea I had to spice up the German civil war, and discovered the SPD had been performing better than Zentrum had during the early 30s. So my question to the devs is why did you guys put Zentrum as the Democratic Party for Germany. Would SPD make more sense, as they were the second largest party in Germany behind the NSDAP.

Good question. Actually, the Zentrum supported the Ermächtigungsgesetz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933) and paved the way for Hitler while the
parliamentarians of the SPD refused and had to face dire persecution afterwards. I think the main reason why the Zentrum was chosen, is the person of Konrad Adenauer which became the first chancellor of the democratic Germany after the war (yet not for the Zentrum, but for the CDU (Christian Democratic Union of Germany). Nevertheless, I think it's a 50:50 choice between SPD and Zentrum so as long as the political system of HOI4 is as it as with only one party it’s OK to choose any of them.

What bothers me much more is the fact that the DNVP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_National_People's_Party) is selected as "monarchist" party - while they might have started as somewhat "monarchist", in the 30s they were just plain Nazis - best shown by the fact that in 1933 they weren't forbidden, but absorbed by the NSDAP.

 

[Dlin369]

Good question. Actually, the Zentrum supported the Ermächtigungsgesetz (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Enabling_Act_of_1933) and paved the way for Hitler while the
parliamentarians of the SPD refused and had to face dire persecution afterwards. I think the main reason why the Zentrum was chosen, is the person of Konrad Adenauer which became the first chancellor of the democratic Germany after the war (yet not for the Zentrum, but for the CDU (Christian Democratic Union of Germany). Nevertheless, I think it's a 50:50 choice between SPD and Zentrum so as long as the political system of HOI4 is as it as with only one party it’s OK to choose any of them.

What bothers me much more is the fact that the DNVP (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German_National_People's_Party) is selected as "monarchist" party - while they might have started as somewhat "monarchist", in the 30s they were just plain Nazis - best shown by the fact that in 1933 they weren't forbidden, but absorbed by the NSDAP.

they definitely got integrated into the Nazis but I’d argue that actually is why they got chosen: the Oppose Hitler->monarchist Germany path relies on crypto-monarchists in the military and administration getting scared and couping the government. Since the DNVP got absorbed, a lot of their members and sympathizers are in the government already and thus are in a good position to seize power after the civil war while the other parties are still recovering

 

[Pille]

Back when the game was released, the SPD actually *was* the Democratic Party of choice, but this was changed to Zentrum at some point. The reason for this was that people (rightly) pointed out that having Konrad Adenauer as Democratic Leader was quite at odds with having Social Democrats running the country, so I guess they chose the lesser of two evils in regards to historical plausibility.

 

[Vin55]

I think they should just rename it to a generic democratic alliance or so,with a choice of either Adenauer or the SPD guy running in 1949, later when you have consolidated the republic. I mean like that you would have flavour in there, mayber with 2 different side branches, one more socialist and the other more conservative, kind of showing that socialist does not mean communism and also selling the democratic idea. (the conservative should maybe have an option for more industry buff and trade realtion with the allies and the socialist get more manpower and trade relation with the east or so (sry not really creative here atm)).

 

[Hemothep]

A democratic Germany would either be ruled by the Zentrum (or CDU if they reformed early) or the SPD, however: If it is led by Adenauer, then it can't be the SPD. The game currently only supports one party per ideology, so Zentrum it is.
If you go into more detail you'll find that a lot of political stuff doesn't make perfect sense. Take communist Germany for example. There are two ways for a communist Germany to form:
1. Get puppeted or released by a communist nation (the historic path)
This is perfectly plausible. KPD is in Charge and Wilhelm Pieck is its leader.
2. A Germany-Player goes the oppose Hitler route and then picks Ernst-Thälmann as an advisor. This makes no sense whatsoever! Why? First of if you go the democratic path first before going communist you'll end up in a constitutional monarchy with the communists in charge. There is no way german communists would have aloud a monarch to stay in power. They already had a violent revolution against both the monarchs and the democrats in 1918/19!
Second, if Ernst Thälmann is not killed by Hitler then why doesn't he lead the KPD?! Wilhelm Pieck only got to be the leader of the post-war GDR because he escaped to moscow early enough and everyone with more support (like Ernst Thälmann of all people) was already dead.
If Thälmann survives Hitler and Germany turns communist, he should be in charge and most certainly not in a constitutional monarchy, or at least not for long.

 

[Duke_Dave]

When they add the communist path they should also add another democratic path this one with the SPD. Basically your organize a rebellion against Hitler, win the civil war and the decide either for communism or democracy and then ally with the remnants of the german army to purge the communists. I think a social democratic path could be quite interesting, reuniting German people through negotiations maybe even a focus tree to form a federal EU state.

 

[Pbhuh]

It would be interesting to see more political parties in the democratic camp.

I believe only the US has the Republicans vs the Democrats, but even that is somewhat flawed.

Zentrum & SPD both work, though I think Zentrum feels more like the other Democratic parties. Spd is sorta in between it and communism.

 

[PurpulaPhoenixum53]

Is this a Hearts of Iron question? Perhaps you just posted your thread in the wrong forum. Anyway, my I interest you in having Alf sprites for HoI units?

It was late at night. I probably didn't realize I had posted it in the wrong forum. Mea Culpa.

 

[Vityviktor]

HOI4 one party per ideology system is terribly limited and simplistic. That's why.

 

[Vin55]

It would be interesting to see more political parties in the democratic camp.

I believe only the US has the Republicans vs the Democrats, but even that is somewhat flawed.

Zentrum & SPD both work, though I think Zentrum feels more like the other Democratic parties. Spd is sorta in between it and communism.

I would not go that far, in Germany the spd, had a split with the more radical leftist and the party was truly democratic, not always right and wise, but it respected the institution and in the beginning helped to stabalize weimar. Thats why I would go for either a focus tree choice of pikking one of them or an event like a free election, where you can choose whoever you whant to rule.

 

[George Parr]

I would not go that far, in Germany the spd, had a split with the more radical leftist and the party was truly democratic, not always right and wise, but it respected the institution and in the beginning helped to stabalize weimar. Thats why I would go for either a focus tree choice of pikking one of them or an event like a free election, where you can choose whoever you whant to rule.

Respected the institutions is putting it mildly. They were the driving force behind the Republic. The entire system hinged on them keeping up democracy. Everything started to fall apart due to the rising fringes (communists and Nazis / the far-right in general). The SPD had to decide between following their ideals and going into broader and broader coalitions to keep democracy afloat. They often chose the latter, putting the nation above their own good, and it cost them dearly with their voter-base.


The whole democratic path is kind of ridiculous anyway. It is set up to go against the Soviets, yet those weren't all that important to democratic Germany at that time. Heck, they had secret deals with them. There wasn't much of an appetite to actively target the Soviets. And what is even weirder is all the European nations happily signing up to a miliary pact led by Germany. Many of these nations stayed out of WW1, why would they now move into such an alliance? And more importantly, why would the Allies, who had very little interest in Germany regaining any sort of might, just watch on while Germany forms a larger and larger alliance?

 

[Dlin369]

Respected the institutions is putting it mildly. They were the driving force behind the Republic. The entire system hinged on them keeping up democracy. Everything started to fall apart due to the rising fringes (communists and Nazis / the far-right in general). The SPD had to decide between following their ideals and going into broader and broader coalitions to keep democracy afloat. They often chose the latter, putting the nation above their own good, and it cost them dearly with their voter-base.


The whole democratic path is kind of ridiculous anyway. It is set up to go against the Soviets, yet those weren't all that important to democratic Germany at that time. Heck, they had secret deals with them. There wasn't much of an appetite to actively target the Soviets. And what is even weirder is all the European nations happily signing up to a miliary pact led by Germany. Many of these nations stayed out of WW1, why would they now move into such an alliance? And more importantly, why would the Allies, who had very little interest in Germany regaining any sort of might, just watch on while Germany forms a larger and larger alliance?

Democratic Germany in HOI4 is less of a "full democracy" and more of a compromise between right-wing military officers (who are afraid of the Soviets) and center-right democrats (Zentrum) so in-lore they're basically united in wanting to defend Eastern Europe from Soviet encroachment

In Meta-Terms the actual reason why it's written that way is so Democratic Germany has a unique path/gameplay. Monarchist Germany can either do the same conquest pattern as Nazi Germany (invade France and then Britain) but also recreating the Central Powers. Or they they can ally with Britain and then invade France and USSR.

Democratic Germany, in order for it to be "worth it" needed to have a new thing going, and in this case Democratic Germany tries to guarantee as much of Europe as possible before the Soviets invade them. I think the path is incomplete without a Soviet expansion to actually make the Soviets threatening/expansion happy without Molotov Ribbentrop pact (which gives the Soviets a lot of their claims instead of waiting 140+ days).