Why is there such a massive opinion hit for raising vassal levies?

[GabrielLoki]

Isn't the whole point of a feudal arrangement "I give you land, you give me levies"? It is very inconvenient to have to fight every single war using only my demesne levies, retinues, and varangians, for fear that ill have a rebellion if I raise the rest my levies... I've honestly considered passing the feudal tax law because my vassals are basically useless whiners. (And no, I don't have conclave.)

Should I create the kingdom of greece and give it to an exarch?

 

[Zsrai]

I... think this is the first time, at least in recent memory, that anyone has complained about the vassal opinion hit. There are a fair number of people wanting it to be harsher here on the forums.

How long are you leaving your vassals levies raised? For it to really add up it would have to be for a few years. Just because they are required to give you taxes and troops doesn't mean that they have to LIKE doing so. They do pay for the troop upkeep, after all.

 

[GabrielLoki]

Things don't always go as planned: a war that should have ended quickly stretches out and the opinion hit gets worse. Once after just 2 months of war, I was taking -40 from a vassal whose levies I raised. out of no where a vassal who loved me was now raising a faction against me. and this was a fairly powerful vassal, too. he had contributed half the levies Iin the war effort.

 

[Iron Chariots]

First of all, the feudal right to your vassal's troops is not absolute: they have to provide you with a certain amount of service, but you're not supposed to keep them in the field indefinitely. Historically speaking, holding together a feudal army for any length of time was damn difficult. In fact, vassals would often pay to get out of having to actually serve. In many realms your vassals should have the option of throwing some money for mercenaries at you if they don't want to provide their own troops.

 

[Iron Chariots]

Things don't always go as planned: a war that should have ended quickly stretches out and the opinion hit gets worse. Once after just 2 months of war, I was taking -40 from a vassal whose levies I raised. out of no where a vassal who loved me was now raising a faction against me. and this was a fairly powerful vassal, too. he had contributed half the levies Iin the war effort.

This shouldn't be the case. Are you sure you hadn't previously raised his levies somewhere, perhaps forgetting to disband a ship in a previous war? I'm pretty sure you get something like a 2 month grace period before the penalty even starts adding up.

 

[WSnova]

They don´t get mad if you raise them in a defensive war.

They get mad if you are using their stuff to win stuff for yourself.

I´d say its pretty light as a penalty. After all you are costing them money and men all for your sake.And its not like you will be giving them any of that land anyways.

 

[kviiri]

Isn't the whole point of a feudal arrangement "I give you land, you give me levies"?

The whole point of employment is that I work for the company, I get paid, but it really doesn't cheer me up on Monday mornings.

Seriously though, if you're having troubles with the "massive" levy opinion hit, you probably weren't doing too good in the first place. It's not like the vassals suddenly decide you're the worst tyrant that ever lived because you fight one war using their troops, but if you keep expanding your realm by keeping their poor peasants in action constantly, yeah, they're going to be upset. It's a natural reaction to when someone borrows your stuff for a day or two and then proceeds to embark on a two-year campaign with it instead.

 

[Zsrai]

Once after just 2 months of war, I was taking -40 from a vassal whose levies I raised.

That... doesn't happen after 2 months. Not from 0 anyways. Maybe if you chain wars together, not giving the opinion penalty time to die down? Or if you keep troops raised in peace? I think it's every 11 days it drops by 1 (or that's how long for it to go up by 1 with no levies raised).

 

[Secret Master]

Isn't the whole point of a feudal arrangement "I give you land, you give me levies"?

You're assuming that in the Middle Ages, the arrangement was "I give you land, you give me levies for as long as I want, whenever I want, with no limits at all." That was not how it operated in practice. Different realms had different limits, but all realms I could think of had limits on how long various types of levies could be raised. In some cases, these limits were tied to seasons (not applicable to CK2), but I can't think of a single feudal realm that did not have limits to the amount of time a levy could be raised.

Hell, some rulers preferred mercenaries for this very reason. As long as you had money, the mercenaries would keep fighting, unlike your levies.

 

[GabrielLoki]

Apparently this vassal got pissed after just a couple of months... he had -40. I have no idea why; he was the viceroy of anatolia and I was using his troops to quickly end a war for Antioch. I don't know the exact amount of time, but I know that it wasn't very long. And this was a vassal that loved me both for giving him a viceroyalty and for nominating him as my successor. He quickly dropped in opinion to the point of forming a faction against me.

Apparently this isn't how the opinion hit is supposed to work, so maybe I'm overlooking something. All I know is that he had an opinion hit of -40 because I had his levies raised.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Apparently this vassal got pissed after just a couple of months... he had -40. I have no idea why; he was the viceroy of anatolia and I was using his troops to quickly end a war for Antioch. I don't know the exact amount of time, but I know that it wasn't very long. And this was a vassal that loved me both for giving him a viceroyalty and for nominating him as my successor. He quickly dropped in opinion to the point of forming a faction against me.

Apparently this isn't how the opinion hit is supposed to work, so maybe I'm overlooking something. All I know is that he had an opinion hit of -40 because I had his levies raised.

A total opinion of -40, or specifically "raised levies -40"?

If the latter, could there have been troops standing around idle for some time before you started the war (although it *should* have blocked it if you have any vassal troops raised)? If the war was started against you, could he have had a boat or a small unit raised somewhere obscure?

 

[GabrielLoki]

I'm honestly not sure; though specifically it was "raised levies -40". I think he had a couple of ships raised somewhere, but I didn't raise them.

 

[Arsonik]

Apparently this isn't how the opinion hit is supposed to work, so maybe I'm overlooking something. All I know is that he had an opinion hit of -40 because I had his levies raised.

Most likely suspect here is that he has a single barony or county somewhere far off from his main holdings with a stack levy of 5 guys sitting in a corn field whacking off. Thats why he is mad. Check your military tab to make SURE you have lowered all levies after every war. Happens to me all the time anyways that I forgot to drop Count Nobodies levies in the middle of butt-fracking nowhere and he throws a temper tantrum about it. Like, how are you even my vassal again bro.

 

[StarSword]

Yeah, I'm occasionally known to forget to dismiss naval levies in particular, especially if my attention is in multiple places (like I'm fighting a war on the continent and have a big Viking raid turn up in my primary holdings in Scotland).

 

[kviiri]

Most likely suspect here is that he has a single barony or county somewhere far off from his main holdings with a stack levy of 5 guys sitting in a corn field whacking off. Thats why he is mad. Check your military tab to make SURE you have lowered all levies after every war. Happens to me all the time anyways that I forgot to drop Count Nobodies levies in the middle of butt-fracking nowhere and he throws a temper tantrum about it. Like, how are you even my vassal again bro.

Yeah, I'm occasionally known to forget to dismiss naval levies in particular, especially if my attention is in multiple places (like I'm fighting a war on the continent and have a big Viking raid turn up in my primary holdings in Scotland).

Yeah, these happen to me too all the time - in particular, sometimes when my realm expands in a weird place (some vassal inherits a barony in the middle of nowhere)... this is why it's a good idea to check what armies you have raised periodically. The military screen makes it easy to see if you have any fleets or levies raised (the dismiss button is disabled if not) but I don't recommend using it to dismiss one's levies. You might lose troops (for having troops abroad, for example).

Overall, unless you have one of these situations or very frequent offensive wars, or you're barely coping with your vassals as it is, the levy relations penalty is negligible. I often deal with very small enemies using ONLY my vassal levies, because they're free (for me) to maintain. When one has larger vassals, their levies are also very useful for raising anywhere on the vassals' fiefs.

 

[StarSword]

It's also very useful to have a big immediate family, since even a vassal who hates you cannot actually do anything about if his kid's married to your sister. I've abused the hell out of this with my mega-Duchy of Mercia. Tons of troops for basically no penalty.

 

[Thrake]

Once I grow big enough, I find it convenient to "rotate levies", ie having for exemple a king vassal and the rest a bunch of dukes/counts. In a war I'll fight with the King levies and in the next one I'll fight with the dukes/counts (having at least one big vassal makes it easy to make sure his levies are raised/not raised). Of course small and easy wars should be fought with demesne troops.

 

[Secret Master]

That's why I dismiss levies from the levy screen. That makes sure I get them all.

There's always some idiot whose troops or ships are deep in Mali for some strange reason after my Crusade for Persia. Then the vassal gets mad, because five light infantry are vacationing in Timbuktu.

 

[Arsonik]

It's also very useful to have a big immediate family, since even a vassal who hates you cannot actually do anything about if his kid's married to your sister. I've abused the hell out of this with my mega-Duchy of Mercia. Tons of troops for basically no penalty.

So the way I am seeing this is that if you have multple counties spanning 2 or more de-jure duchies, but you are holding them all under 1 ducal title, they give the same benefits you normally would to troop bonus etc in your capital duchy? I don't think I have observed this for instance owning Latium + Genoa and Venice without forming the ducal titles for Genoa or Venice.

 

[StarSword]

So the way I am seeing this is that if you have multple counties spanning 2 or more de-jure duchies, but you are holding them all under 1 ducal title, they give the same benefits you normally would to troop bonus etc in your capital duchy? I don't think I have observed this for instance owning Latium + Genoa and Venice without forming the ducal titles for Genoa or Venice.

No, I'm talking about marrying your royal family into your vassals' for non-aggression pacts. I just ended up with an oversized and therefore levy-rich Duchy of Mercia because of how far the Icelings expanded before I conquered them. The Duke is usually pretty irritated because of how often I raise those huge levies, but he can't do anything like faction against me because my daughter is married to his heir.