WHY is there NO Slovenian culture?

[Warial]

Man it seems so much easier and smarter to just combine these little Slavic states in to one big one.

Yeah, because that worked just great...

 

[Andrelvis]

Austrian provinces are weirdly shaped/placed/named from the start

Oh you sweet summer child... you must not have looked at Austria in the CK2 map

 

[DanubianCossak]

Oh you sweet summer child... you must not have looked at Austria in the CK2 map

One of the reasons i cant play CK2

 

[Mark68]

So...do we want the devs to model Tito half a millennium before he existed?

 

[otaats]

As far as Macedonia goes, it would be the best idea to split Skopje into Skopje (Serbian culture) and Bitola or Ohrid (Bulgarian culture). That way you will better represent the Macedonia Slavs.

As far as Slovenian culture goes, i don't see why not add them as an accepted culture in Austria. The least they can do is to make them have a releasable tag that would flip the culture into Slovenian if the player decides to play with Celje/Cilli.

 

[Roki_09]

People are mixing 1444 and modern times...

 

[Clownie]

I don't think "Slovene" would be a very good moniker for an Austrian Slavic culture. Carinthian, Carniolan, or Gorizian would probably be more time-appropriate, but they sound a bit awkward. I can't find any info on when the word "Slovene" first came around, but it's ultimately derived from some variant of the term "slav", much like Slovakian. The first book in Slovene was written by this guy, but I'm not sure it was referred to as "slovenski"(?) at the time.

I'm in favour of a Slovene culture in the game, but only if it doesn't have an anachronistic name. Before I'm called out on it: yes, I think the same about Romanian and Slovakian, and my personal pet peeve on this forum is people trying to push Icelandic culture.

 

[Zaddy]

I wouldn't be against Slovenian culture being added but it would have to be as part of a general Austria overhaul which would also have to be heavily railroaded into a historical outcome of Austria being unified, for the same reasons that we have the Burgundian Inheritance etc.

God, please no more railroading. I'd prefer game mechanics that allow a strong Austria to occur naturally rather than ham-fisting it through with clunky events.

Same goes for Dutch Revolts garbage and Burgundian Inheritance. I want that stuff to happen organically through game mechanics, not just forcing it.

 

[Palando]

I don't think "Slovene" would be a very good moniker for an Austrian Slavic culture. Carinthian, Carniolan, or Gorizian would probably be more time-appropriate, but they sound a bit awkward. I can't find any info on when the word "Slovene" first came around, but it's ultimately derived from some variant of the term "slav", much like Slovakian. The first book in Slovene was written by this guy, but I'm not sure it was referred to as "slovenski"(?) at the time.

I'm in favour of a Slovene culture in the game, but only if it doesn't have an anachronistic name. Before I'm called out on it: yes, I think the same about Romanian and Slovakian, and my personal pet peeve on this forum is people trying to push Icelandic culture.

Austrian culture would also fall into this category, as a distinct Austrian culture is a concept of the 20th century.

If you want to use a not anachronistic name for Slovene, use Windic (in ger. Windisch). Not to be mistaken with Wendisch which describes Lusatia.

 

[ChloePech]

Austrian culture would also fall into this category, as a distinct Austrian culture is a concept of the 20th century.

If you want to use a not anachronistic name for Slovene, use Windish (in ger. Windisch).

Ehhh, they may not have CONSIDERED themselves different, but they were- especially linguistically, as they were the first to adopt new pronunciations of german that eventually spread, whereas Prussians and the Dutch never did (old german was pronounced similarly to English). So I would argue that the lack of a national identity didnt mean there wasnt a different culture, and by the time of the league wars, there CERTAINLY was a different culture, even if it wasnt admitted due to ambitions of unifying German-speaking lands. Also, there are prechristian remanents in areas of Austria that dont exist in Germany, another cultural division.

 

[Palando]

Ehhh, they may not have CONSIDERED themselves different, but they were- especially linguistically, as they were the first to adopt new pronunciations of german that eventually spread, whereas Prussians and the Dutch never did (old german was pronounced similarly to English). So I would argue that the lack of a national identity didnt mean there wasnt a different culture, and by the time of the league wars, there CERTAINLY was a different culture, even if it wasnt admitted due to ambitions of unifying German-speaking lands. Also, there are prechristian remanents in areas of Austria that dont exist in Germany, another cultural division.

Well, I should have been more precise: Austrian should be replaced with Bavarian. Comparing them with Prussians, disgusting!
Its not like, we have a German culture to begin with, only a Germanic culture group.

 

[gigau]

Reminder : this thread deals with the Slovene culture. If you want to discuss about other cultures, better create a new thread (keeping in mind to keep things civil and avoid flaming).

Any further off-topic will get more than just post deletion.

 

[123e55]

Not to be rude or anything but, whenever the devs implement something in the Balkans, there is always someone to bitch about it.

Well, the balkans are named 'the powderkeg of Europe' for a reason

 

[Clownie]

Austrian culture would also fall into this category, as a distinct Austrian culture is a concept of the 20th century.

Be that as it may, there's at least a polity called Austria, which isn't anachronistic. An Austrian culture as the main culture of Austria is acceptable, since you need to separate them from Bavaria somehow (please don't make Wien defect to Bavaria), and North/South Bavarian would just seem queer.

A polity called Slovenia, meanwhile, would be outright bizarre, and thus one can't just name the culture Slovenian. Windic/Windish does seem legit, though.

 

[Needs more Cilli]

Dialects are not important as no Slavic ethnicity in Balkans was delineated by them.

No Slavic ethnicity in the Balkans was delineated by dialects? My friend, I suggest you rethink your definition of ethnicity...

• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_of_Prekmurje
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prekmurjehttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prekmurje
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste
• https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_group

Ehhh, they may not have CONSIDERED themselves different, but they were- especially linguistically, as they were the first to adopt new pronunciations of german that eventually spread, whereas Prussians and the Dutch never did (old german was pronounced similarly to English). So I would argue that the lack of a national identity didnt mean there wasnt a different culture, and by the time of the league wars, there CERTAINLY was a different culture, even if it wasnt admitted due to ambitions of unifying German-speaking lands. Also, there are prechristian remanents in areas of Austria that dont exist in Germany, another cultural division.

So dialects warrant culture? You do realize that you posted this on a thread about Slovenia, one of the most dialect dense countries in the world? Well, I anxiously await the 30+ new cultures of EU4. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slovene_dialects)

Be that as it may, there's at least a polity called Austria, which isn't anachronistic. An Austrian culture as the main culture of Austria is acceptable, since you need to separate them from Bavaria somehow (please don't make Wien defect to Bavaria), and North/South Bavarian would just seem queer.

A polity called Slovenia, meanwhile, would be outright bizarre, and thus one can't just name the culture Slovenian. Windic/Windish does seem legit, though.

Austrians was just a term used to distinguish the inhabitants of southeastern border of the Holy Roman Empire, the region was essentially a continuation of the March of Carinthia in the Frankish Empire. All of the region's inhabitants were considered Austrian (like the terms Carpathian and Balkan), the distinction was provided by the language spoken (ie. German Austrians and Slavic Austrians). Frankly, Austrian culture should just be changed to Bavarian, since Bavarians were the ones who Germanized most of the then Carantanians (Slovenes), and of course the minority cultures should be added in the regions where they were present.

As far as I know, the term Slovenes has existed since at least the 1500s, when Primož Trubar used it in his book the Abecedarium. German names such as Windisch or Wenden used to denote the Slovene inhabitants of Austria likely appeared in text even earlier. In the worst case, a releasable nation of Slovene culture could take the name Carantania, similarly to the Slovak situation with Nitra, which ceased to exist at around the same time. I fail to see why all of these double standards apply only to Slovenia.

 

[Warial]

No Slavic ethnicity in the Balkans was delineated by dialects? My friend, I suggest you rethink your definition of ethnicity...

Interesting bit about Prekmurje, but why should I rethink my definition of ethnicity? Slovenia is dialectally diverse, but I'm not aware of any tries to create separate states split on dialectal basis (though I wasn't aware of Prekmurje so I could be wrong) and even Prekmurje dialect is quite similar to some dialects eastern Slovenia (per wiki). I would say the ethnic divergence of Prekmurje is more due to being separated by Hungarian border from Austrian Slovenia. Though the creation of separate literary standard helped a lot to cement the differences.

Still, my previous response was less connected to Slovenia and more to Serbia, Croatia, and Bosnia where ethnicities were constructed more on the basis of regional divisions and religion, while dialects were secondary at best.

 

[AirikrStrife]

SO I actually made a thread on adding Slovenia about a month before this was made (so gotta disagree with OP about no one talking about it) https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/inner-austria-adding-slovenia.1045991/
there really is room for adding a slovenian culture, but there are some debattable issues around it.

Adding Cilli/Celje province would be historically correct, having that part of untersteiermark (Lower Styria) as part of Krain is just wrong (even if they don't add slovenian culture we still need more accurate border in inner austria). Adding Cilli as a state would also be a nice touch, but having it use slovenian as primary culture would be some poetic licensing alright because even if the ruling dynasty might have had some slovenian origin (which I think is disputed) the county was a german county in the same sense that all those crusader states in greece has various italian or french primary cultures. I.e. Cilli would use Austrian as primary and Slovenian as an accepted.
I guess one of the issues of adding Cilli as it's own country is that it didn't rule a contigous land in modern Slovenia area but spread out castles and feudal holdings (look at the maps at wiki). Considering PDX treatment of the HRE it wouldn't be unprecedented though to make Cilli be an OPM controling all of Untersteierkmark (They did not hold the city of Marburg/Maribor in Untersteiermark though which I believe would be the largest city in the area)

So giving a tag for Slovenian culture, I don't think Kärnten/Carinthia would work, while it is the only Slovenian duchy in history the area of Carinthia was pretty germanized and the province of Carinthia should (as it has in game) have Austrian culture. So making a country for Slovenia when the province the country is based on isn't using slovenian culture, would be a bit strange so I propose using Carniola (Krain) as the tag for Slovenians. Kärnten could have a Carniolan core though as it was still significant slovenian minorities in the region.

Dealing with Austria littoral is, I guess one of the more delicate issues.

So this is a 18th or early 19th century map of Inner Austria. The interesting thing is while I can't speak about the internal borders within the historic lands, as shown here, the external borders of the various lands were almost unchanged for the entire EUIV timeline. (Lands meaning Küstenland/Littoral Carinthia/Kärnten, Krain/Carniola and Steiermark/Styria)

Some noticable things is how Istria is split between Austria and Venice. Also in game it is noticable that the Istria province (while being owned by Venice) has Trieste as capitol (which was a free city within Austria). Also Friuli is owned by Austria (in 1444 it was owned by a german noble dynasty as vassals of Austria), meaning for historical accuracy the city should become it's own province and not be part of Hungary.

The nature of Ethnicity in the whole littoral is highely debattable, and no matter what some people insist the area had italian (friulian or venetian) or Slovenian majority, I haven't seen any convincing sourcing proving either side right. Personally I'm leaning against having Görz use Slovenian based on reading that the town had a significant italian imigration after 1500. I would appreciate better sources though (and don't use 18th century Austrian census because that is proves nothinig for the 1444 situation)

The exact ethnic composition of Trieste is also vague but I believe the city itself should have italian as it was the elite culture. However as the province could be made to have more of Istria as shown on above map (the Austrian part of the March of Istria) it could very well be made a slavic province given the population would then likely be majority slavic (slovenian croat) though march of Istria could also be given to Carniola province but I believe that would make the provinces in the area too small.

The venetian part of Istria could then get venetian culture as romance speakers dominated the coast.

Fiume/Rijeka should also have venetian culture.

but I'm not aware of any tries to create separate states split on dialectal basis

Some time ago someone on this forum found an old british education book (19th century) online. It was generally really bad in terms of accuracy but gave an interesting perspective on how the brits viewed the world in the 19th century. https://books.google.se/books?id=kb...6AEIKjAA#v=onepage&q=wendo-lithuanian&f=false
The book calls SLovenian Windic and says it is spoken by several nations named after the countries they inhabit i.e. Carinthia, Carniola and Styria.
Nation I believe shouldn't be read as independent country but in the ethnical sense and country either denotes a State but rather the notion of a Land in the sense of a cultural and/or political body. This I believe (while not being entirely reliable) indicates a low level of common national identity among Slovenes. I see this could be one argument against slovenian culture in the game, ut really this is not strange circumstances durin the timeline of EUIV as cultures/ethnicity wasn't really that relevant back thn as it is today and slavic speaking people did inhabit the territories in question.

 

[Needs more Cilli]

Also Friuli is owned by Austria (in 1444 it was owned by a german noble dynasty as vassals of Austria), meaning for historical accuracy the city should become it's own province and not be part of Hungary.

Just a small typo, you probably meant Fiume based on the rest of your post.

Personally I'm leaning against having Görz use Slovenian based on reading that the town had a significant italian imigration after 1500. I would appreciate better sources though (and don't use 18th century Austrian census because that is proves nothinig for the 1444 situation)

That sentence is a bit ambiguous, could you rephrase what you mean?

 

[Needs more Cilli]

So giving a tag for Slovenian culture, I don't think Kärnten/Carinthia would work, while it is the only Slovenian duchy in history the area of Carinthia was pretty germanized and the province of Carinthia should (as it has in game) have Austrian culture.

I disagree, the culture situation in Carinthia is just as debatable as the one in Gorizia. If the Slovene culture were to be added, it is possible that a Slovene culture in Carinthia would be warranted.

According to the 1910 Austrian census, 20% of the population of Carinthia listed Slovene as their "language of daily interaction", therefore not accounting for those who were ethnically Slovene but did not list it; the fact that there was such a high Slovene presence there five centuries after game start makes it impossible to dismiss. Not only population wise, but also land wise, a very large majority of Carinthia had large Slovene speaking populations.

The Slavic inhabitants of Inner Austria are the earliest inhabitants to have survived to this day. When Carantania lost it's independence in 745, there was almost no presence of Germans in the region. Because they willfully became a tributary to the Franks, the Carantanian nobility and lords were allowed to keep their land and German presence went mostly unnoticed. The situation in Pannonia was quite different, the land acquired from the Avars was given to Emperor Charles' most loyal soldiers as compensation (though with the important function of defending the border against the threat of possible Avar retaliation). The situation changed after Ljudevit Posavski's failed rebellion in 1819, the Carantanians were then incorporated into the empire. The Slavic lords lost their titles and land, which was given to the Germans. This was the beginning of accelerated German colonization of Carantania, though at this point it was exclusive to the nobility and wealthy landowners. The Hungarian invasion in the beginning of the ninth century led to the destruction of many German settlements in the Pannonian March, as well as present day Slovenia and eastern Austria. However, this reprieve was short lived as the Hungarians were finally stopped at the second Battle of Lechfeld in 955. Since the Germans' conflicts with the Hungarians were over, they could continue their uninterrupted colonization of the Slovene lands. The German immigration into Slovene lands continued throughout the Middle Ages, though it was most pronounced during the 10th and 11th centuries. Though the land was still predominantly Slovene speaking, the Germans held positions of influence. Serfs were subjected to the whims of their masters, which also included which language they were allowed to speak. Similarly, mixed marriages and economic dependencies on German neighbors were reasons for the fast Germanization. It is said that every century, the border between the German and Slavic speakers would shift South by a mile (not sure about the validity of this). The region south of the Drava and Mura rivers had the densest settlement of Slavic speakers, and any exclave of Germans was quickly assimilated (this region is the primary one for this discussion). In 1414, Ernest the Iron became the last Duke of Carinthia to be entroned by a peasant according to the Carantanian tradional rite at the Prince's Stone (just an example of the massive influence Slovene culture had in Carinthia).

If you have made it through that wall of text, then you see just why this is such a complex topic, and why simply keeping Carinthia as Austrian culture is not the correct course of action.

By the way, I also do not think having Gorz be Italian (or even Friulian) is the correct course of action, either. The province represented by Gorz in EU4 was the historic Slovene connection to the sea for over 1000 years.

 

[Rikissa]

I'm all for including Slovene culture, but you'd need a source to show that Carinthia was predominantly Slovene during the game's timeframe. Unfortunately, in EU4 we can only have one culture per province which for example leads to South Tyrol/Trent, another linguistically diverse area, having Venetian culture ingame.

Regarding German colonization: AFAIK genetic studies place modern Austrians in a cluster with the Czech, Slovaks, the Slovene and Hungarians. Which points towards more subtle processes of language change and elite recruitment rather than a massive influx of German colonists.