Why is there no Rollo/Normandy bookmark?

[Rikashey]

You have 867 then a massive span of 200 years to 1066 with multiple bookmarks in that same year.

Yet there is no 876 Siege of Paris by Rollo and the Normans for a claim on Normandy?

I wish you guys would have a Normandy bookmark with the leader having claims on Sicily and other italian holdings.

It would be awesome to play the Normans, not Norman England.

Also, trying to do this manually as a random Norse warlord preparing an invasion on West Francia for Normandy won't work.

When you Prepare Invasion of West Francia and declare war, the option for Normandy doesn't show up and I'm not sure if this is because there is already a scripted event for it to happen by an adventurer or what but you as the player cannot declare war for the Duchy of Normandy and it annoys me.

 

[DirtyRoberto]

You have 867 then a massive span of 200 years to 1066 with multiple bookmarks in that same year.

Yet there is no 876 Siege of Paris by Rollo and the Normans for a claim on Normandy?

I wish you guys would have a Normandy bookmark with the leader having claims on Sicily and other italian holdings.

It would be awesome to play the Normans, not Norman England.

Also, trying to do this manually as a random Norse warlord preparing an invasion on West Francia for Normandy won't work.

When you Prepare Invasion of West Francia and declare war, the option for Normandy doesn't show up and I'm not sure if this is because there is already a scripted event for it to happen by an adventurer or what but you as the player cannot declare war for the Duchy of Normandy and it annoys me.

I think it's a lot of effort, if you want to keep the high standard that HIP has

 

[Rikashey]

I think it's a lot of effort, if you want to keep the high standard that HIP has

Well they put all the work into creating like 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 and the same for a few others so why not one for Normandy?

 

[DirtyRoberto]

Well they put all the work into creating like 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 and the same for a few others so why not one for Normandy?

Probably because historical sources are much better and I think they only made 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 to display more interesting characters and to give players the opportunity to choose if England will be Norman.

 

[theKing1988]

Well they put all the work into creating like 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 and the same for a few others so why not one for Normandy?

The reason why we can put in 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 and none for 876 is actually pretty simple. There is scripted rulers for the entire map in 1066, there is very few if any scripted rulers for 876. We would have to create the bookmark from scratch, Paradox created 1066 for us.

If we put aside the fact that the work creating such a bookmark would be enormous and take us a lot of time for a second, we have actually already addressed creating bookmarks between 867 and 1066 numerous times. And we have explicitly ruled out a bookmark between 867 and 955

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...mh-starting-date-between-867-and-1066.795898/
https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...mh-starting-date-between-867-and-1066.795898/
You can find elaborations on why, we made this decision scattered throughout this thread. But the long and short of it all comes down to the fact that the source material is not conductive in our opinion to creating a bookmark that we will end up being satisfied enough with to make us want to spend the considerable amount of time required to make it

We would have to resort to an uncomfortable amount of placeholders for to much of the map and when we finally have a top liege to use for an area, we would be unable to find any vassals for him

 

[Lowcast]

I'd like it if there were a way to get a claim on Normandy as a Norseman. I've done a few Norse -> Norman games but prepared invasion only lets you take stuff like Aquitaine. For the sake of historicity it seems important since the region wouldn't even be called Normandy otherwise.

 

[Rikashey]

The reason why we can put in 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 and none for 876 is actually pretty simple. There is scripted rulers for the entire map in 1066, there is very few if any scripted rulers for 876. We would have to create the bookmark from scratch, Paradox created 1066 for us.

If we put aside the fact that the work creating such a bookmark would be enormous and take us a lot of time for a second, we have actually already addressed creating bookmarks between 867 and 1066 numerous times. And we have explicitly ruled out a bookmark between 867 and 955

https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...mh-starting-date-between-867-and-1066.795898/
You can find elaborations on why, we made this decision scattered throughout this thread. But the long and short of it all comes down to the fact that the source material is not conductive in our opinion to creating a bookmark that we would like to spend the considerable of time required to make.

We would have to resort to an uncomfortable amount of placeholders for to much of the map and when we finally have a top liege to use for an area, we would be unable to find any vassals for him

I'd like it if there were a way to get a claim on Normandy as a Norseman. I've done a few Norse -> Norman games but prepared invasion only lets you take stuff like Aquitaine. For the sake of historicity it seems important since the region wouldn't even be called Normandy otherwise.

Indeed, at the very least I wish they'd allow us to Prepare Invasion for Normandy...

Speaking of Norse, why is Nantes even a faction? Not that I'm complaining (it's one of my favorite to play) but the vikings in Nantes had been expelled for about 20 years at the start of 867.

Also, why is Holland controlled by a norse?

Why is Dublin a vassal of Ivar the Boneless? Sure, Ivar eventually becomes king of Dublin but at this point in time it was Olafr who was king and he was independent not a vassal of Ivar. Dublin was also settled by Norwegians not Danes or Swedes.

 

[Rylock]

There's already an event for Rollo to appear and claim Normandy. Unless you're suggesting that I concoct a special CB for you to go and pre-empt that event yourself, I'd suggest you wait for Rollo to appear and then play him once he achieves victory -- or use one of the already-existing Norse CB's to acquire Normandy.

 

[Rikashey]

There's already an event for Rollo to appear and claim Normandy. Unless you're suggesting that I concoct a special CB for you to go and pre-empt that event yourself, I'd suggest you wait for Rollo to appear and then play him once he achieves victory -- or use one of the already-existing Norse CB's to acquire Normandy.

But there are no existing CBs to acquire Normandy except a regular Conquest piece by piece which is impossible when fighting someone as large and powerful as West Francia as a random norse. You would have to be declaring war over and over against one of the strongest kingdoms in the game.

The point of using Prepare Invasion is that you get an army and can conquest the entire duchy/kingdom in one go.

If it's too tedious to make a new bookmark for Normandy then why not make it so you can at least an Prepare Invasion for it?

 

[Thure]

Also, why is Holland controlled by a norse?

Because of Rorik of Dorestad.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rorik_of_Dorestad

 

[Ese Khan]

Well they put all the work into creating like 2-4 bookmarks for 1066 and the same for a few others so why not one for Normandy?

Just to be clear, making a bookmark somewhere between 1066 and 1337 doesn't take all that much work because Paradox and the SWMH already did the work. Natural, of course, since CK2 is supposed to let you play from any date between those years. Anything after 867 and 1066, though, is an entirely different story. There are LOTS of holes.

And to be sure, SWMH has two bookmarks for 1066: Battle of Stamford Bridge and William the Conqueror, both of which are vanilla bookmarks. I just wanted to better inform you.

 

[Admiral Fischer]

I have nothing related to any part of the current set up, and I am not part of the SWMH team let alone any other HIP-related modules but:

Indeed, at the very least I wish they'd allow us to Prepare Invasion for Normandy...

But at least you can always conquer Rouen.

Speaking of Norse, why is Nantes even a faction? Not that I'm complaining (it's one of my favorite to play) but the vikings in Nantes had been expelled for about 20 years at the start of 867.

This configuration is same as the vanilla CK2. In the 840s the Noirmoutier island was settled by the Vikings (843 if the island recorded in the Annals of St Bertin is Noirmoutier) For next twenty years records about 'Northmen based on the Loire' appears very constantly, with the Bishop of Nantes fleeing to Anjou. The Loire Vikings were permanently expelled only in 937 by the Bretons and that's some 70 years after 867.

Also, why is Holland controlled by a norse?

Again, same as the vanilla. Granted to Harald Klak and later his relative since 826.

Why is Dublin a vassal of Ivar the Boneless? Sure, Ivar eventually becomes king of Dublin but at this point in time it was Olafr who was king and he was independent not a vassal of Ivar. Dublin was also settled by Norwegians not Danes or Swedes.

Vanilla CK2. Olafr is known to have accompanied in almost every Ivar's campaign in Ireland and in fact named as a co-ruler with Ivar in many chronicles so Dublin was not independent from Ivar at all.

 

[AbZeroNow]

Just wanted to say that I'm very glad that the SWMH team is working on 1043(and everything between that and 1066). It's very much appreciated.

 

[Rylock]

If it's too tedious to make a new bookmark for Normandy then why not make it so you can at least an Prepare Invasion for it?

Because a chain for Rollo already exists, as an adventurer (which is how the Norse grab duchies, generally).

It really seems like you want to be an adventurer. Well, that's too bad -- that doesn't happen anywhere, and isn't about to happen here. I'm not about to add a CB for a foreign realm (and not an independent adventurer) to be able to grab Normandy, so you'll have to either use a Prepared Invasion (which has limits on how large the target realm can be, and targets a kingdom and not a duchy -- and I'm not about to change that) or one of the other Pagan CB's and make do. Or you can wait for Rollo to succeed at his invasion and then play as him. Or you can talk to the Pagan Improvement Project mod and see if they'll accommodate your wishes.

Those are your options.

 

[Rikashey]

Because a chain for Rollo already exists, as an adventurer (which is how the Norse grab duchies, generally).

It really seems like you want to be an adventurer. Well, that's too bad -- that doesn't happen anywhere, and isn't about to happen here. I'm not about to add a CB for a foreign realm (and not an independent adventurer) to be able to grab Normandy, so you'll have to either use a Prepared Invasion (which has limits on how large the target realm can be, and targets a kingdom and not a duchy -- and I'm not about to change that) or one of the other Pagan CB's and make do. Or you can wait for Rollo to succeed at his invasion and then play as him. Or you can talk to the Pagan Improvement Project mod and see if they'll accommodate your wishes.

Those are your options.

Is there a way I can mod it myself so I can target Duchies instead of Kingdoms or both?

What file would I look for?

 

[StarlightTW]

I'm not in a position where I can actually check who holds the area at the moment, but couldn't you also just do a custom norse ruler holding the area and then roleplay it from there? It seems an awful lot of work for the team just to accommodate a specific scenario. And while the Normans definitely had a big impact on history, there already exists an event that tends to lead to their creation. The fun of ck2 is in ALTERING history, at least for me. So what's to say a powerful norse ruler couldn't have taken advantage of political instability in the region to lay claim to all of Aquitaine? Obviously it should be as accurate as possible until you press play, and events should be made to simulate probable historical events, but not every intricacy can be reasonably accommodated. Coding in that kinda thing is a lot of work. I'm having enough trouble just coding events for my own project, and when compared to some of the stuff in EMF's code it's quite simple.

It's totally understandable that people want to be able to explore a cool scenario that they're hyped about, but when it comes down to it, that's a lot of work for something that might be important to you and a few others but is inconsequential to the wider audience of the project. If you can code something like that in for yourself, fantastic! But failing that, it might be time to look for acceptable alternatives within the bounds of what's currently available.

 

[Starki113r]

I mean, you could play as Rognvald Eysteinsson, the father of Rollo, and try to take Normandy for yourself.

Maybe add in a small event for historical-minded players with two options if they push to take Norman lands as the family

A) Change dynasty to du Normandie, culture convert to Norman (if it's spawned), but requires you to surrender your lands and claims in Scandinavia to their de jure king (if one such exists) or have it be usurped by a local jarl (if a king does not), as well as convert to Christianity and swear fealty to France.

B) Reject Christianity and remain Norse invaders, which obviously prevents the rise of a new French dynasty.

I agree that it shouldn't be railroaded for players, though; naturally the player will succeed far better than historical figures did, and the entire point of Rollo submitting to France was because he was defeated in battle at Chatres and it was more profitable for him to accede to Charles' offer. If he had won decisively I doubt he would have submitted to a Christian King's will after freeing himself from Fairhair's.

 

[Rylock]

I mean, you could play as Rognvald Eysteinsson, the father of Rollo, and try to take Normandy for yourself.

Maybe add in a small event for historical-minded players with two options if they push to take Norman lands as the family

A) Change dynasty to du Normandie, culture convert to Norman (if it's spawned), but requires you to surrender your lands and claims in Scandinavia to their de jure king (if one such exists) or have it be usurped by a local jarl (if a king does not), as well as convert to Christianity and swear fealty to France.

B) Reject Christianity and remain Norse invaders, which obviously prevents the rise of a new French dynasty.

I agree that it shouldn't be railroaded for players, though; naturally the player will succeed far better than historical figures did, and the entire point of Rollo submitting to France was because he was defeated in battle at Chatres and it was more profitable for him to accede to Charles' offer. If he had won decisively I doubt he would have submitted to a Christian King's will after freeing himself from Fairhair's.

There is already a chain for all of this. It is there for Rollo as a duchy adventurer, which players can't be - though if you switch to play as Rollo after he succeeds at his adventure, you'd get the events as you describe them.

But I am not adding a way for a player to somehow replicate that on their own. You wouldn't be an adventurer like Rollo - you'd be a ruler who would retain their lands back wherever they came from, and the only way to simulate being Rollo is to manually release your old land. At that point, why not just wait the 10-15 years after the Old Gods start to switch to Rollo? A bookmark would be better, yes, but the map simply doesn't have the history support between the Old Gods start and 1066 to do that, so it's not going to happen...and I am not doing the work to add it in otherwise. Not only am I not interested, I have a lot more important work on my plate, particularly right now with the whole compatch.

There is no need to keep asking.

 

[Moarice]

This whole discussion makes me want to annoy Paradox by making a thread #51835691065079178956310 where I'd say they should allow us to play unlanded characters.

 

[Rikashey]

There is already a chain for all of this. It is there for Rollo as a duchy adventurer, which players can't be - though if you switch to play as Rollo after he succeeds at his adventure, you'd get the events as you describe them.

But I am not adding a way for a player to somehow replicate that on their own. You wouldn't be an adventurer like Rollo - you'd be a ruler who would retain their lands back wherever they came from, and the only way to simulate being Rollo is to manually release your old land. At that point, why not just wait the 10-15 years after the Old Gods start to switch to Rollo? A bookmark would be better, yes, but the map simply doesn't have the history support between the Old Gods start and 1066 to do that, so it's not going to happen...and I am not doing the work to add it in otherwise. Not only am I not interested, I have a lot more important work on my plate, particularly right now with the whole compatch.

There is no need to keep asking.

Fine, I understand that you don't want to do it.

But could you at least direct me to the file where I can modify it myself so that Prepared Invasions are able to target Duchies?