The Ottomans are I think the easiest nation to play. They have devastating potential for those willing to become world conqueror.
Why is the Ottoman Ghazi idea still in this game?
- Thread starter Colossal_Elk
- Start date
-
We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.
- Status
That would be the people who designed the game, maybe? Maybe they got tired of seeing the Turkish AI consistently underperform? Maybe they thought that giving ONE non-Christian nation a fighting chance of achieving its historic role was desirable?
Maybe it's ok to nerf it in MP games? Seems like a house-rule mod would resolve that, without changing the game for everyone else. But, even for MP, I'm not sure why you wouldn't want to encourage the kind of coalitions that WERE historically necessary to check the Ottomans?
That said, though, it does seem like the type of bonus that should sunset. Maybe around the time some of the other religious things vanish (what? ~1650 or so?)
My Empire was spanning the Enire mideterranean at that point. So I could do it. I can post screenshots if you don't believe me. They could not seige those provinces since they were busy seiging the balkans. My max manpower was about 200k max.
Ghazi is still in the game, because it is a fair and balanced mechanic, that give the Ottomans a slight advantage during their historical peak time.
Indeed. When I play as Ottomans, I often conquer much more land than my historical counterpart. AI Ottomans should be improved to obtain a historical set though. They don't even make an attempt to conquer the little states in the Balkans. Not to mention much of the North Africa and Hungary.
Haha ok. At that point it would be difficult to march and block training everywhere, though they could still cause a lot of problems with war score stuff.
That being said, what if, instead of having the Ottoman tag, you had that land as Sweden, Burgundy, or Brandenburg/Prussia? How much *less* difficult (if it would be less difficult at all
) would it be to conquer a nation like that with that kind of land?Don't get me wrong, Ghazi is very powerful. However, does it and +10% discipline really outstrip the best Europe has to offer, given otherwise equal land?
Mmmhhh the ottomans were pretty much invincible and had unlimited manpower until 1683 so the idea works well
I think it needs a pretty big nerf.
The problem is that in single player there's not much issue if the AI has it, as it makes the Ottomans a nice challenge. A player will easily abuse it, but if it's his own game who cares what he chooses to do? The difference is in MP, where it essentially gives the Ottomans unlimited manpower. In that arena it's just so much more powerful than anything anyone similar gets.
The problem is that in single player there's not much issue if the AI has it, as it makes the Ottomans a nice challenge. A player will easily abuse it, but if it's his own game who cares what he chooses to do? The difference is in MP, where it essentially gives the Ottomans unlimited manpower. In that arena it's just so much more powerful than anything anyone similar gets.
There's more to this game than manpower. If a good player has the Ottos early, make good use of that human diplomacy and make sure they don't multiply their force limits to apply it.
Pretty much any human-played nation will conquer much more land than their historical counterpart.
But really, why should the Ottomans be nerfed? The game is not meant to be balanced; Byzantium and the Ottomans should not have equal probabilities of success. Ottomans can be contained (and will have problems fighting western nations once their tech starts to lag/their units get worse unless they westernize, which is a serious moment of vulnerability right there). Do they have a strong idea set? Sure, but the same could be said about many other nations in the game.
And as you said, AI Ottomans are terrible, never coming close to achieving what they did historically.
Most people play single player and will play the ottomans once, so it's much better for everyone that they can achieve their historical power
Whining about ottoman NIs is strange considering that Prussia and Muscovy has far stronger NIs.
Of if late-game nations didn't tend to just as often supplant half their forces or more with "money" rather than "manpower"...especially the infantry.
That too. Also forgot muscovy which gets a permanent +75% Manpower and +10% Manpower recovery bonus, not to mention -10% tech cost, army tradition, coring cost, and infantry cost.
Paradox please just add an I win button that makes any player instantly win the game; we all know that every nation that inflicts a slight setback on a player is overpowered!!!
Seriously I'm sorry about coming in sarcastic; but I have yet to see Ottomans conquer Hungary, Mamelukes, all of the Balkans while being a serious and credible threat to all Italian States, Spain, and Portugal.
I enjoy playing as Byzantines; but the ai Byzantines should never survive; or if they do it should be 1/100 if that. After John Contacuzenus granted the Gallipoli Penninsula to the Ottomans in return for their intervention in civil war on his behalf only a Crusade Coalition victory could save the Byzantines which is why paradox set the game the day after Varna.
Gazi is not overpowered; Ottomans would like to trade it for the absurdly high discipline of multiple European Countries...., or maybe being able to monopolize the new world...., or perhaps the trade bonuses for getting trade away from Alexandria...., or maybe it could trade it for Britain's (in player hands) invulnerable position? Not to mention it would like to trade it's useless late game units forcing it to allow itself to fall behind technologically to westernize for western units...., maybe it would also like to trade for christianity so it could do royal marriages with equivalent powers in order to make the historical alliance with France easier......
If another player picks ottomans you could coalition him; if it is the ai you just need more power.
Seriously I'm sorry about coming in sarcastic; but I have yet to see Ottomans conquer Hungary, Mamelukes, all of the Balkans while being a serious and credible threat to all Italian States, Spain, and Portugal.
I enjoy playing as Byzantines; but the ai Byzantines should never survive; or if they do it should be 1/100 if that. After John Contacuzenus granted the Gallipoli Penninsula to the Ottomans in return for their intervention in civil war on his behalf only a Crusade Coalition victory could save the Byzantines which is why paradox set the game the day after Varna.
Gazi is not overpowered; Ottomans would like to trade it for the absurdly high discipline of multiple European Countries...., or maybe being able to monopolize the new world...., or perhaps the trade bonuses for getting trade away from Alexandria...., or maybe it could trade it for Britain's (in player hands) invulnerable position? Not to mention it would like to trade it's useless late game units forcing it to allow itself to fall behind technologically to westernize for western units...., maybe it would also like to trade for christianity so it could do royal marriages with equivalent powers in order to make the historical alliance with France easier......
If another player picks ottomans you could coalition him; if it is the ai you just need more power.
Actually, if it's the AI it's best to catch them tied up in a difficult war and jump them during that. It doesn't matter if they have 1000000000 manpower, the AI tends to train units in only a few places, so once you've nailed down their current forces (or just let another AI do it), don't let them make another stack. I've beaten quite a few large nations that had 50k+ manpower remaining and never got more than 2 regiments out before they were repeatedly killed. These nations actually *gained* manpower while I held them down to 0 regiments. You can own big nations so hard that OPMs nearby will DoW them and take land, even if you're not that big
. All you need is their initial armies out of the way and a separate war <3.The AI just doesn't know to build away from the big (or even not-so-big) stack sitting next to its favorite training locations.
Actually, if it's the AI it's best to catch them tied up in a difficult war and jump them during that. It doesn't matter if they have 1000000000 manpower, the AI tends to train units in only a few places, so once you've nailed down their current forces (or just let another AI do it), don't let them make another stack. I've beaten quite a few large nations that had 50k+ manpower remaining and never got more than 2 regiments out before they were repeatedly killed. These nations actually *gained* manpower while I held them down to 0 regiments. You can own big nations so hard that OPMs nearby will DoW them and take land, even if you're not that big
The AI just doesn't know to build away from the big (or even not-so-big) stack sitting next to its favorite training locations.
That is true; I really can't see the point in complaining about Ottomans; not everyone will pick an opm, and the ones who don't have mechanics to deal with players who like to pick France let alone Ottomans. In Single Player Ottomans if anything need a buff; I have never seen them achieve their historical power, and they are certainly not a menace to Europe unless you pick a Balkan country.
You are so intelligent. I wish I could make great arguments as well as you.
Want to troll? Find another thread. Bye.
They *could* be a menace to Europe, especially when their infantry has 8 pips at tech 5, with their starting ruler getting them there quickly.
But the game provides many, many reasons they'd prefer to avoid it. Alliances, coalition trash, power structure all push the Ottos to expand away from Europe, where it's face-desk easy, rather than into it, which is actually tough sledding.
I wouldn't say they're underpowered though. There are only a few nations that have a better shot at WC, and that's largely because those few nations begin in a position to shut down colonial powers + are large themselves + already western.
- Status