Why is the Fraticelli Pope duke level, and not king, like the Catholic Pope?

[Walkaboutout]

So, can anyone answer why the Fraticelli Pope was made a duke level title, and not a king level title like its Catholic counterpart?

I'm curious as to what the gameplay, or potentially alternate-history lore, reasons are behind it.

If anyone cares, I even tried to mod it but can't make it work right. Changing it simply to a king level title results in the breakage of the Fraticelli college of cardinals mechanic; it just stops electing cardinals and functioning properly.

I've tried alternatives to modding; for example in a non-ironman game I edited the save to try and grant a kingdom title to the Fraticelli Pope (since you can't grant him one in-game), and that worked in a general sense, but doing so both broke the papal inheritance process as well as eventually (after the death of the first Pope) causing the college of cardinals to not work.

So, at this point, I've decided that it'll have to stay duke level, since I don't have the modding skills to change it and make it work right.

 

[Serenity84]

So you can vassalize him as a king

 

[Karlington]

So you can vassalize him as a king

Most likely the explanation is as simple as this.

 

[Walkaboutout]

That was sort of my thought too, that it was to make it much easier to vassalize him, and as a king rather than an emperor. Which is sort of too bad, I really wouldn't mind him presenting a stronger presence as a king. Alas.

 

[jwalche]

That was sort of my thought too, that it was to make it much easier to vassalize him, and as a king rather than an emperor. Which is sort of too bad, I really wouldn't mind him presenting a stronger presence as a king. Alas.

You can always give him a kingdom.

 

[Walkaboutout]

You can always give him a kingdom.

I wasn't able to, in-game via grant, either when he was independent, or as a vassal. That doesn't mean I wasn't just missing something, but I had two non-primary kingdom titles at the time (just made Romagna, and also had just created West Francia), and neither one shows up as an option for grants.

I figured Romagna would work for sure, since, having given the new Pope Rome and the Latium duchy, Romagna was the De Jure kingdom title for the area now.

 

[Ultima_Ratio]

I wasn't able to, in-game via grant, either when he was independent, or as a vassal. That doesn't mean I wasn't just missing something, but I had two non-primary kingdom titles at the time (just made Romagna, and also had just created West Francia), and neither one shows up as an option for grants.

I figured Romagna would work for sure, since, having given the new Pope Rome and the Latium duchy, Romagna was the De Jure kingdom title for the area now.

Flavor text for feudal government states that you can't grant kingdoms or empires to characters with a government from a different group though I'm not sure what "different group" means here since I'm pretty sure you can grant kingdoms to MRs... at any rate in my experience you can't grant kingdoms to any theocracies.

 

[Masternachos]

Flavor text for feudal government states that you can't grant kingdoms or empires to characters with a government from a different group though I'm not sure what "different group" means here since I'm pretty sure you can grant kingdoms to MRs... at any rate in my experience you can't grant kingdoms to any theocracies.

Could it simply be that the text was 100% accurate upon release, and they haven't changed it to reflect the merchant republic exception released since then?

 

[mrinku]

The main thing with the Fraticelli (not well represented in the game) was their fanatic opposition to the wealth and temporal power of the church.

Makes sense to me that they would not have a king-tier Pope, but be in line with all the other religious heads (Caliph, Fylkir, Patriarchs) and be Duke tier.

 

[MrParadux]

I don't think it's the Fraticelli Pope that's the odd one out, but the Catholic Pope. All other religious heads except for the Catholic Pope and Ecumenical Patriarch are Duke level (and the Pontifex Maximus for some reason).
My guesses as to why these are:
The Pope as one of the most influential figures in medieval Europe should not be able to be vassalized by a simple king.
The Ecumenical Patriarch is king level to ensure he is only ever directly under the Byzantine Emperor and not some Exarch.
I assume a similar reason for the Pontifex Maximus.

 

[Sunshine Moon]

Pontifex Maximus was one of the most prestigious figures in ancient Rome and often was also a prominent political figure (Caesar was Pontifex Maximus in addition to his other titles), but you're likely right that the reason for the title being king-tier is so that nobody but the Roman Emperor can have them as a vassal, since having reformed Rome is the most common/'simplest' way of reviving that religion.

 

[kviiri]

The Pope's status as a king makes certain amount of sense, as kings were (as a convention, not a binding rule) sovereign by law and the Pope's sovereignty is a long-standing political issue. I think it plays well with history that only someone worthy of the title Emperor will be powerful enough to even question that sovereignty.

I've always thought the Fraticelli Pope's lower standing was somehow supposed to reflect the church being somewhat reformist and less concerned with the idea of earthly sovereignty. But it might as well just be a random idea that hasn't been revised any more than heresies in general.

 

[Sunshine Moon]

I guess it's a halfway point between that and the other Catholic heresies that have the general theme of 'disliking the opulence of the church', who don't allow a Pope-like figure to exist at all.

 

[Woifee]

So you can transfer him to be a vassal of the catholic pope who is your vassal.