Why is the development of a province tied to political power?

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Roelath

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Were the zoning commissions just as restrictive then as they are today? Would the game become a bit too crazy if a province organically developed based upon their civilization, infrastructure, and population?

Allowing for increased building slots, trade routes, growth, and resource generators based upon the factors above rather than a mana power is more natural.
 

Denkt

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The trade route hard cap don't make much sense at all to be honest, more realistic trade system would be that you needed a navy to get trade routes and such, did Rome stop its diplomacy and conquest so it could get enough trade routes to import grain to the city, absolutly no.

Infrastructure, well engineers was more prized in roman times than today due to how few people that possed such knowledge but do that mean it cost political Power, again no.

The military and religious investment could maybe make some sense that they cost political Power but I think overall it is very abstract.
 

tsf4

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Quite simply, its just a way to directly influence your nation/land. Playing at the mercy of letting pop decide what I get as a nation (especially a small one) , that would be horrible. I always use things which cost PI to make my nation better almost like Civ, which is fun.
 

Denkt

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Quite simply, its just a way to directly influence your nation/land. Playing at the mercy of letting pop decide what I get as a nation (especially a small one) , that would be horrible. I always use things which cost PI to make my nation better almost like Civ, which is fun.
We could make them cost other resources:
  • Trade: Require a navy (why do you think nations like Carthage invested into naval Power), maybe an army for land based trade.
  • Infrastructure: Could cost research progress to represent your engineers working on improving the infrastructure rather than conducting research, this is still super abstract.
  • Procurators: They could cost political influence but they could also be some sort of minor title for characters.
  • Religious: Probably political influence but the religious system will be reworked.
The reason why is the game is very based on mono resources, basically resources with one purpose and expanding on the use of each resource we can make them more strategic.
 

Roelath

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The trade route hard cap don't make much sense at all to be honest, more realistic trade system would be that you needed a navy to get trade routes and such, did Rome stop its diplomacy and conquest so it could get enough trade routes to import grain to the city, absolutly no.

Infrastructure, well engineers was more prized in roman times than today due to how few people that possed such knowledge but do that mean it cost political Power, again no.

The military and religious investment could maybe make some sense that they cost political Power but I think overall it is very abstract.

I agree.. I feel as though I'm limited in my ability to wage war, declare what the province capital is, expand the infrastructure of a province, decide whether or not people starve because the zoning commission needs to be pressured to allow more grain into my province, and just the overall ability to organically grow. I also don't understand the +modifiers from the Military + Religious investments based upon politics. The entire political system should be reshaped to house the influence of different laws being passed.

Quite simply, its just a way to directly influence your nation/land. Playing at the mercy of letting pop decide what I get as a nation (especially a small one) , that would be horrible. I always use things which cost PI to make my nation better almost like Civ, which is fun.

The natural growth of a province should dictate it. Spamming your resource on your capital is such a brainless activity and some of the modifiers are so laughable in how much they provide you're almost required to always spam it on your cap. Trade routes? Well better hit that button until you hit 100+ trade routes. Need more buildings? Keep hitting that button.
 

CaptinObvious

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Because the whole system was hacked together in a few months because we needed some actual gameplay ASAP instead of whatever the heck we had on release?
Also, provincial development was introduced with 1.1, *before* the mana rework, so it was simply migrated into PI with no further thought because there was no time to balance anything.
 
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JeanneTherin

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The current application of PI is just bad. You have a lot of interactions that you can do, all competing for the same mana resource. A resource that you only generate a finite amount of and have very little agency beyond ensuring a loyal government and spamming influence character.

This has the effect, at least for me, of not interacting with 90% of the uses for that political influence.

For example, something as simple as moving a provincial capital after annexing it from another country, 25 Pi. Yeh right.
I ignore all but 1 province when considering a provincial investment, it's simple inefficient to spend it anywhere else. Never build cities unless im a civilising tribe and hardly use any of the diplomatic options that cost PI.

The interactions are there, it's just stifled by the last remnant of mana. The only valid expenditure is spamming your capital, laws, and claims.
 
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tsf4

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But you guys want to be at the mercy of what your pops decide to do? Seems more like a simulation than a game. I know some people don't want to micro all of this and use mana for it, but I find this sets it apart from other games.

But it could just be my playstyle, where I am playing as incredibly small less than 5 territory nations and I enjoy micro-ing the nation the way I feel. If there is no PI/mana, then I am just sitting and waiting for external events to happen and that seems boring? I guess the I:R micro stuff is on the same level for me as ck2 family dynamics, in that it would be boring to not have them.

* The above is just my rambling, but it seems the forum and most players seek a war filled TW like game and want things all managed for them while they play that way. But when you play like I do, almost never warring and just kinda building up my pop and land, these points and buttons are quite enjoyable.
 

Denkt

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They wanted a non snowballing resource which is the purpose of political influence, but in many ways it don't make much sense.

  • Improve relation: Here we could use characters like EUIV have diplomats
  • Trade routes: A very good reson why nations had large navies
  • Fabricate claims: Again could use characters, same with basically all diplomacy options
  • Research, manpower and gold could be used for the provincal actions
  • Increase stability, could be more natural like staying at peace would see it rise, being at war could see decline and so on, currently it don't feel like it actually represent stability at all.
  • Government actions, could have tradeoffs instead of political influence cost
  • Loyalty for government offices could influence events, unloyal people could sabotage instead of helping
  • Found city, could cost gold and manpower, also there is advantages of settlements, metropolis could be limited to one per province.
  • Move capital, could cause a loyalty drop and make the pops in that province/territory unhappy for a while.
  • Change governor policy, loyalty hit with the governor and tyranny
This took me just like 5-10 minutes to spontaneous make up, so the question feel like is political influence something needed or do less abstract solutions exist for Everything that cost it? Sure the snowball issue is a thing but it is a thing currently, even with PI, so PI do not do what it is supposed to do:)
 

tsf4

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I disagree, so will step away from this convo. dont want to attract dev attention to this ;)
 

Roelath

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But you guys want to be at the mercy of what your pops decide to do? Seems more like a simulation than a game. I know some people don't want to micro all of this and use mana for it, but I find this sets it apart from other games.

But it could just be my playstyle, where I am playing as incredibly small less than 5 territory nations and I enjoy micro-ing the nation the way I feel. If there is no PI/mana, then I am just sitting and waiting for external events to happen and that seems boring? I guess the I:R micro stuff is on the same level for me as ck2 family dynamics, in that it would be boring to not have them.

* The above is just my rambling, but it seems the forum and most players seek a war filled TW like game and want things all managed for them while they play that way. But when you play like I do, almost never warring and just kinda building up my pop and land, these points and buttons are quite enjoyable.

Financial investments and organic growth should be the factors. You could take the PI mechanic away entirely and place solely into $$ + Buildings. You can take $$ to boost civilization in a province which allows for more infrastructure. Build an extra market in that city and get a +1 trade route. Your pop growth is too slow? Build an aqueduct to increase the pop generation and civilization level to encourage that growth.

The current meta is spam PI into the capital, move everyone to the mega city, and reap the rewards.

Civilization = EMPIRE_CAP + PROVINCE_CIV_INVESTED + BUILDINGS
+ Happiness
+ Building slots
+ Pop growth
+ Food resource
+ Trade resource (-1 required for X amount of civilization)
+ Pop Capacity
+ Trade routes
+ Migration attraction

Buildings Cap = POP_SIZE + CIVILIZATION + LAND_TYPE
+ Civ
+ Civ growth
+ Happiness
+ Resource modifier
+ Migration attraction
+ Pop Growth
+ Pop Cap
+ Trade routes
+ Defense
+ Food cap
+ Assimilation
+ Prov Loyalty
- Corruption/Squalor

Population = TOTAL_NUMBER_OF_BUILDINGS + CIVILIZATION + LAND_TYPE
+ Unrest (Culture+Religion+Tyranny+AE)
+ Resource generator
+ Building cap
+ Food generation (Freemen + slaves + tribesman)
+ Corruption
- Sanitation
- Food (ALL_POPS)
 

Denkt

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I disagree, so will step away from this convo. dont want to attract dev attention to this ;)
Do you actually think we have enough political influence to change the law setting from using political influence to not using political influence:D

My political influence is probably a big 0:p
 

tsf4

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Lol, actually when it comes to laws I think a cooldown of some amount of years + the stability hit would be good if you wanted to remove PI or any "point" from them
 

Denkt

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I disagree, so will step away from this convo. dont want to attract dev attention to this ;)
A bit ironic:D
Lol, actually when it comes to laws I think a cooldown of some amount of years + the stability hit would be good if you wanted to remove PI or any "point" from them
Well see, we even have found a way to remove PI from laws:)