Why is Provincial AA almost pointless right now?

[Slan]

The question was raised multiple times: "Is provincial AA any good?" The answer was most of the time that it is not. Now, the question is: why?

What does provincial AA do? Multiple things!
- It increases artillery practical. Actually, I wouldn't consider a building that only increases practical a good thing, I would consider it gamey. But AA certainly gets the job done in this regard.
- It fires upon enemy bombers. That includes every type of bombing: Strategic Bombing, Logistical Bombing, Installation Strikes, Port Strikes, Runway Cratering, Ground Attack and Interdiction. Yes, provincial AA defends your ground units as well! One level of AA has one shot at the enemy Aircraft, plus modifiers from technology. ("Heavy AA" tech.)

So, from these, it would seem pretty useful! Then again, the base Air Attack value of a single Anti-Air Brigade is 5, so it would be worth 5 levels of Provincial AA, and it can move... So, you are better off using a Garrison Division with a single Garrison Brigade and three AA Brigades, because it has 15 Air Attack already, for 7*95+1.67*60 = 765 IC and 7.67 manpower, while ten levels of AA would cost 3*10*60=1800 ICdays, although it would cost no manpower. (I neglected the discount from practical, but since they use the same practical, it wouldn't matter much.)


So, currently building provincial AA is much, much cheaper. But IMO the main disadvantage is not cost. Provincial AA is attacked in every strategic bombing type but not attacked by tactical bombing (ie. when bombing units), while AA brigades are attacked by tactical bombing but not by strategic bombing types. This has the strange result of provincial AA being more useful in defending your ground troops while AA brigades being more useful in defending your provinces!


Now, I don't think this is right. I suggest the following changes to improve this:
i) Provincial AA should be much more powerful. Instead of the current 1 point of Air Attack they have, I would suggest giving them 2. (The easiest way should be to increase the "local_anti_air = 1" to "local_anti_air = 2" in the '\common\buildings.txt' file.)
ii) Provincial AA should only be fired on in the "Installation Strike" mission. Heavy Anti-Air batteries were not placed in the direct vicinity of the potential targets, because then they could only shoot down the enemy planes when they already dropped their load, and that's hardly a satisfactory way of defence. They were positioned on the way the enemy bombers were expected to come from. They should only be damaged if specifically targeted.
iii) I would also change them from being Strategic targets into being Soft targets, if possible. Heavy Anti-Air batteries are not the size of a mine or a factory, hitting them with a Strategic Bomber is much harder than with a Tactical Bomber. On the other hand, a Tactical Bomber is much more vulnarable against heavy AA fire, because it has to fly much lower.

 

[bbasgen]

The question was raised multiple times: "Is provincial AA any good?" The answer was most of the time that it is not. Now, the question is: why?

What does provincial AA do? Multiple things!
- It increases artillery practical. Actually, I wouldn't consider a building that only increases practical a good thing, I would consider it gamey. But AA certainly gets the job done in this regard.

According to the wiki, provincial AA is the least efficient way of producing artillery practical.

Overall, I agree and would like to see provincial AA more productive. I've read many of the threads on this subject regarding the relatively lackluster results of AA in WW2, yet I think AA had a strategic impact. A slightly modified suggestion is to make provincial AA immune to installation strikes. I'm not clear how provincial AA could be targeted: much unlike an airport or a port, provincial AA is scattered everywhere, in bunkers, and makes for a very small target. I wonder how effective attacks against AA were in WW2?

 

[Kovax]

Agreed, thoroughly.

Changing Provincial AA to be attackable by aircraft as ground targets, instead of being part of the factory complex, would be far more realistic. You should be able to damage them if you specifically go after military targets (the heavy AA batteries were too slow to track fast, low-altitude fighter-bombers that were sometimes used against them; that was the job of the lighter AA as used in mobile AA brigades), but not by strategic bombing.

Actually, converting them to military units with 0 movement (strategic redeploy only) would make a LOT of sense, because they WERE semi-mobile. The game would then have Mobile AA and Heavy AA brigades. The typically 76-150mm guns could be redeployed, as they occasionally were historically, but new emplacements would need to be excavated or built up. If the attack delay after redeploy could be modified to disallow them any attack during that time (while they re-emplace and then set up the guns), that should model their historical use fairly well. It would also allow them to be used defensively against ground targets (with relatively low values) and especially against armor in a pinch, as was also historically done.

[Note: the infamous German "88" Fleugzeug Abweher Kannon (FLAK) gun was considered a "light" high-altitude AA piece, and was fairly mobile as a towed gun. The 105mm was also commonly used by Germany for static AA defense, but could also be moved with a similar carriage to the "88". Lighter and even more mobile 20mm and 37mm AA cannon were commonly used for defense against strafing and dive-bombing attacks. The Allies relied on at least one 90mm AA gun and some larger models. The US used .50 calibre MGs for "point defense", as well as the 40mm "Pom-Pom" gun for intermediate ranges, which I believe was originally based on or licensed from a Swedish design.]

 

[Darkrenown]

I always thought of provincial level AA as more like this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Vienna_flak_tower_dsc01594.jpg
or this:
http://www.undergroundkent.co.uk/maunsell_towers.htm

So it makes sense they wouldn't be movable. I would rather like AA to make buildings in that province take less damage from bombing rather than just upping their attack values. The real strategic effect of heavy AA batteries was to make bombing less accurate, as the bombers flew higher or dropped their bombs early to avoid it, rather than just shooting down bombers.

 

[Slan]

Yes, that could work as well. But I still think that they should be specifically targeted to be damaged, and not bombed to nothing with every type of strategic bombing like it is now.

 

[bbasgen]

Actually, converting them to military units with 0 movement (strategic redeploy only) would make a LOT of sense, because they WERE semi-mobile. The game would then have Mobile AA and Heavy AA brigades. The typically 76-150mm guns could be redeployed, as they occasionally were historically, but new emplacements would need to be excavated or built up. If the attack delay after redeploy could be modified to disallow them any attack during that time (while they re-emplace and then set up the guns), that should model their historical use fairly well. It would also allow them to be used defensively against ground targets (with relatively low values) and especially against armor in a pinch, as was also historically done.

Great idea. To darkrenown's point, I agree on the general goal to make provincial AA safer from STRAT bombing.

 

[Raptor83]

I agree that buildings with AAA in same province should take less damage when bombed (x% lower damage pet level of AAA).

HoI3 also should return feature from HoI2 (and AoD) - that AAA should damage aircraft flying over provinces with AAA.

 

[Kovax]

The examples shown in Darkrenown's link are an unusual exception, where special structures were erected for the AA guns. Perhaps the location was dictated by the line of approach, or because either land values or availability made it cheaper to build on water, or maybe the shell trajectories would have had the shell fragments come down in urban areas if they chose another spot.

Generally speaking, AA was usually "dug in", with low timber, sandbag, or concrete protective walls shielding the above-ground portions. That was still "optional", and I recall seeing pictures of a 105mm AA gun operating from its foldable "X"-shaped metal swivel base and completely in the open (the 88mm AA looked similar, but was slightly smaller and typically included a large gunshield as well as the "X" base). That should all be covered by the "entrenchment" bonus if they were turned into land units.

To be realistic, you'd probably be safer to have Mobile AA to protect your Heavy AA from low-level attacks, and the Heavy AA to defend the entire province (including both the Mobile and the Heavy batteries) from high-altitude bombing. Both should have some limited degree of "soft" attack, mainly due to crew rifles besides the ability to fire HE ammo, and the heavier guns should have more "hard" attack than the mobile pieces, but their ground toughness value would be pitiful.

 

[Slan]

HoI3 also should return feature from HoI2 (and AoD) - that AAA should damage aircraft flying over provinces with AAA.

How? I mean how would you know which provinces did the aircraft fly over anyway? In HoI2 (and AoD), the provinces are big enough so that aircraft will go through every one of them on their way, but not so in HoI3, here they "jump" over several provinces. It could be tweaked that the AAs fire on the aircraft directly above them, but then you would either have to build AA in every province, or the bombers would have a very good chance of simply skipping the provinces you defended.


@Darkrenown: Would it be possible to extend the 'BASE_FORT_PENALTY' variable from defines.lua (the one that tells the engine how big the penalty for attacking one level of land/naval fort for land units) to also apply for bombers against provinces defended by provincial AA? And if so, it would only be a single step further to also apply that to Paratroopers

 

[Raptor83]

How? I mean how would you know which provinces did the aircraft fly over anyway? In HoI2 (and AoD), the provinces are big enough so that aircraft will go through every one of them on their way, but not so in HoI3, here they "jump" over several provinces. It could be tweaked that the AAs fire on the aircraft directly above them, but then you would either have to build AA in every province, or the bombers would have a very good chance of simply skipping the provinces you defended.

It works in AoD even in cases when bomber fly over several provinces per hour.

 

[DanSez]

DoublePlusGood thread. Redacte alpha change positive new spec increase AA defense firepower outlier. Re-education recommend.

I love Big Brother ...(bang)

Its been one of those mornings, sorry....

I do support giving love and attention to the Provential AA which did take out many bombers and forced them to fly higher and at different elevations which impacted accuracy and caused damage. That Brit (and French while they are still in the game) bombers can fly and bomb cities in Germany during daylight hours in 1939-44 is so far out of the historical record as to be absurd.

Please, please, please add a little dev time to this.

 

[Sangeli]

IMO what needs to be done is to make different damage variables for each type of building. Modders could make damage to infrastructure independent of the damge to ports in terms of the strength. Same with AAA; if AAA had its own variable we could toughen it up a lot more.

 

[bbasgen]

That Brit (and French while they are still in the game) bombers can fly and bomb cities in Germany during daylight hours in 1939-44 is so far out of the historical record as to be absurd.

Ah yes, it would be wonderful to accurately model day time and night AA effectiveness. I would think the AI should be able to handle it too: basically don't allow bombing sorties during the day!

 

[xerxesking]

The examples shown in Darkrenown's link are an unusual exception, where special structures were erected for the AA guns. Perhaps the location was dictated by the line of approach, or because either land values or availability made it cheaper to build on water, or maybe the shell trajectories would have had the shell fragments come down in urban areas if they chose another spot.
l.

those forts in the Thames were put up because the germans were using the wide estuary to fly deep inland without being in range of shore based AA guns (and also to ease nativation. "fly straight on this bearing till you hit the river mouth, then follow it inland till you hit london"), so they built the forts to put new AA guns under the german apporach line.

 

[=Mike=]

Ah yes, it would be wonderful to accurately model day time and night AA effectiveness. I would think the AI should be able to handle it too: basically don't allow bombing sorties during the day!

The US 8th bombed exclusively by day.

 

[DanSez]

The US 8th bombed exclusively by day.

Right, but they didn't start any significant bombing campaigns until late 42 and took a stiff beating until late 44 when P51s and Continent based P47s were flying deep over German home territory.

I don't think that the game should not allow daylight bombing, but there should be a corresponding higher attrition rate for daylight raids vs night time. Daylight would be more accurate (depending on weather as well). A number of things in the game's current setup is grossly inaccuate.
The lack of damage to the bomber units from interceptors and AA. The amount of damage those strat bombers do and that defending AA are wiped out faster than the factories being targeted. I'm not clear of weather has much effect on bombers finding their targets or the accuracy either - probably not.

IIRC - the 8th Air Forces' bomber campaign regularly sustained 20%+ loses and there was serious discussion in US high command of shutting down daylight bombing in late 43/early 44. The Brits (Harris and others) thought the US was wasting their men needlessly and tried to get the US to join them in night time attacks. It is a testiment to the guts or the nuts (stubbornness) of US bomber forces sticking with their plans in the face of those losses.

Night time bombing was highly inaccuate in the early war so night damage should be minscule to none in the scope of this game until techs are developed. The beginning of ECM and ECCM with radar and chaff or Window as it was called.

 

[phantomrider]

Couple of comments -- 1) Agree that provincial AA should be semi mobile -- the guns could be moved and were. 2) Provincial AA should take 0 damage from strategic bombers -- this type of bombing was lucky if they could hit within a mile or two of their intended target even in daylight (slight exaggeration only) and knocking out a battery or individual gun would be pure luck. When you get down to strafing (multi role fighters, combat air support and even low level tac bombers) individual AA guns and their crews needed to pay attention because they are/were at risk. This also applies to radar as well. On the other hand provincial AA because it is not really mobile could be "dug in" and semi protected as well so would take more limited damage than mobile towed or even self propelled (armoured) AA

 

[unmerged(47028)]

We should think about AI. Semi mobile units would be useless for AI. Even now AI is not great at using Garrisons it would be even more difficult to teach AI using mobile AA defenses effectively.

 

[GAGA Extrem]

AAA suffers the same problems akin to fortifications:
Two many provinces to cover & too costly to build it everywhere you need it.

They are worthwhile on remote locations (like all these small pacific islands, Gibraltar, Malta, Hong Kong and maybe Singapor) and maybe important harbors (I usually build AAA level 10 in Wilhelmshafen as GER), but there is no point in building a "Flakwall" like you do in AoD. I guess they could be more important in Multiplayer, when strategic provinces become more significant, but never really played any HoI3 MP games - so I can only guess.

Apart from that - does AAA even deal decent damage nowadays? I have never noticed any significant effects, neither when I was on defence nor when I was on the attack.
I remember giving it +100% efficiency modifier during war time in my vanilla mod and increased their efficiency gain from AAA tech to +50% per level, but even then I rarely saw any damage on enemy bombers - even a single STRAT wing could complelty obliterate them without taking any serious damage.

Although that was quite some time ago - was anything patched in this regard?

 

[Baltasar]

The AI doesn't handle units well in general, if it does it is a pleasant surprise. Point being: this would only add one other aspect the AI can't handle that well and I doubt it'd be game breaking.