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Tryvenyal

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I disagree because, historically speaking courts in feudal countries have often been dependent on which dynasty was in power and even then moved around a lot. The AI should desire provinces and duchies based on an estimate of their value and try to take provinces that would be valuable to it, if it has a convenient way to do so. And in the same vein have a set of weights for where to place it's capital.

It´s not a coincidence that some of the best provinces, both IRL and ingame is marked as mighty kingdom- capitals. There are ofc more to it than this but "good" geography -> good demogaphy -> prosperity -> desireable capital area. It´s a strong factor! But I agree, an AI king should aim for "good land", not "Historical capital" but in many cases it would mean no difference to how it works ingame now :)
 

TheDungen

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It´s not a coincidence that some of the best provinces, both IRL and ingame is marked as mighty kingdom- capitals. There are ofc more to it than this but "good" geography -> good demogaphy -> prosperity -> desireable capital area. It´s a strong factor! But I agree, an AI king should aim for "good land", not "Historical capital" but in many cases it would mean no difference to how it works ingame now :)
Yeah it would, because there are many good capital locations, and while the capital may be amongst the best if there are other that are easier to get then the AI should go for those instead.
 

Tryvenyal

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Yeah it would, because there are many good capital locations, and while the capital may be amongst the best if there are other that are easier to get then the AI should go for those instead.

in some kingdoms, yes. In others no... Thrace? Ireland? Norway? Finland?

And in the equation we have how developed it is, how many holdings are built, how many total available spots etc... ! In the end, AI very likely would prefer the "Historical capital" in most cases, I´m afraid. Maybe with the exception of Egypt! :)
 

Antiphates

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I think the AI should strive to do something like:
1: locate capital in the duchy where it controls the most counties, if evenly split take the duchy with most holdings.
2: Revoke counties in the duchy of my capital

That would lead to stable AI realms as the king would consolidate a core duchy. Then again, do we want stable realms in ck2?
 

TheDungen

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in some kingdoms, yes. In others no... Thrace? Ireland? Norway? Finland?

And in the equation we have how developed it is, how many holdings are built, how many total available spots etc... ! In the end, AI very likely would prefer the "Historical capital" in most cases, I´m afraid. Maybe with the exception of Egypt! :)
Just because those are examples of kingdoms that didn't move their capital doesn't mean they couldn't have. Rome is one such example, but Rome isn't feudal, and even they did move their capital. Even Machiavelli wrote a chapter endorsing moving the capital when convenient.
Also there never was a kingdom of Finland, and Norway moved it's capital as I recall. In Ireland I assume you mean Cill Dara? But that was more of a ceremonial thing wasn't it?


I think the AI should strive to do something like:
1: locate capital in the duchy where it controls the most counties, if evenly split take the duchy with most holdings.
2: Revoke counties in the duchy of my capital

That would lead to stable AI realms as the king would consolidate a core duchy. Then again, do we want stable realms in ck2?
No but we don't want the realms to be unstable because of AI incompetence but because of how good the AI is at playing a vassal.
 

Yeekim

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The only problem I see here is that the AI may gift its "dejure capital" away first and then try to revoke it. This ought to be fixed.

Being pigheaded about wanting it is not a problem imho.
 

Tryvenyal

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Just because those are examples of kingdoms that didn't move their capital doesn't mean they couldn't have. Rome is one such example, but Rome isn't feudal, and even they did move their capital. Even Machiavelli wrote a chapter endorsing moving the capital when convenient.
Also there never was a kingdom of Finland, and Norway moved it's capital as I recall. In Ireland I assume you mean Cill Dara? But that was more of a ceremonial thing wasn't it?

I obviosly failed to make myself clear. All I ment was that if the Doux/Strategos of Crete is Elected Byzantine Emperer, he has a wide range of potential capital duchies to "upgrade" to as is currently has a rather weak duchy, even if he controlls both the counties. He will need to expand his power to keep the grep over the realm and he likely will do that on behalf of a more powerfull vassal than he was himself. Even if considering your argument, his top candidate is Thrake. Then, is there ant reason for him NOT to go got for Thrace - even whithout the cheating usurp decision for Constantinople? Yes, of course there are! There are a multitude of suitable capital duchies. So what should this ambitious emperer aim for? Say he selects as following, considering power of the entire duchy if all kept by himself:
1. Doux of Thrake - Strong consolidated doux, the crappy primo son of his own precessor. They mutially dislikes each other
2. Strategos of Hellas - Single county ruler with some quality. Advisor. Indifferent opinion.

There can ofc be several more simelar to no 2. What should he choose?

As a player, you have no idea of what support a rebelling "revoke - target" will get if rebelling and AI should not know that either.

Moving to France, as it´s OP example. Niether Duchy nor County of Paris is a given capital area. Maybe best but there are loads of alternatives. And France(West Francia, the kingdom) has very few bad duchies. So whatever de-jure West francian duchy you have, maybe the AI should be happy with it and rather focusing on non-tyranny ways of weakening strong vassals.
 

TheDungen

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I obviosly failed to make myself clear. All I ment was that if the Doux/Strategos of Crete is Elected Byzantine Emperer, he has a wide range of potential capital duchies to "upgrade" to as is currently has a rather weak duchy, even if he controlls both the counties. He will need to expand his power to keep the grep over the realm and he likely will do that on behalf of a more powerfull vassal than he was himself. Even if considering your argument, his top candidate is Thrake. Then, is there ant reason for him NOT to go got for Thrace - even whithout the cheating usurp decision for Constantinople? Yes, of course there are! There are a multitude of suitable capital duchies. So what should this ambitious emperer aim for? Say he selects as following, considering power of the entire duchy if all kept by himself:
1. Doux of Thrake - Strong consolidated doux, the crappy primo son of his own precessor. They mutially dislikes each other
2. Strategos of Hellas - Single county ruler with some quality. Advisor. Indifferent opinion.

There can ofc be several more simelar to no 2. What should he choose?

As a player, you have no idea of what support a rebelling "revoke - target" will get if rebelling and AI should not know that either.

Moving to France, as it´s OP example. Niether Duchy nor County of Paris is a given capital area. Maybe best but there are loads of alternatives. And France(West Francia, the kingdom) has very few bad duchies. So whatever de-jure West francian duchy you have, maybe the AI should be happy with it and rather focusing on non-tyranny ways of weakening strong vassals.
But I was talking about feudal rulers which the emperor of the byzantine empire is not.
 

Tryvenyal

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But I was talking about feudal rulers which the emperor of the byzantine empire is not.

Well... Are not a definition of a feudal government an dynastial succession? In all cases where this is broken - when a landed claimant is enforced or a lord dies with no heir, then that happens as an exception to the feudal contract both IRL and ingame, is it? And feudal elective is not really a feudal government but a ingame simplification? And please tell me how an imperial government is different in this aspect? you had Rome as an example above...

Rome isn't feudal, and even they did move their capita
 

TheDungen

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Well... Are not a definition of a feudal government an dynastial succession? In all cases where this is broken - when a landed claimant is enforced or a lord dies with no heir, then that happens as an exception to the feudal contract both IRL and ingame, is it? And feudal elective is not really a feudal government but a ingame simplification? And please tell me how an imperial government is different in this aspect? you had Rome as an example above...
Yes but more of a fyi, my statement was still that feudal should not care about the dejure capital (seeing it as just a good duchy).
 

Tatterhood

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The only problem I see here is that the AI may gift its "dejure capital" away first and then try to revoke it. This ought to be fixed.

Being pigheaded about wanting it is not a problem imho.
The former is a bigger (and more easily fixed) problem, but I disagree that the latter is not a problem. The AI should behave in a way which makes sense, and this simply doesn't, from an in-character or an out-of-character perspective.

If the point is just to have "sometimes the king should be a dick and revoke titles" for gameplay reasons then it should be modified by ai_ambition and ai_rationality and it should be applicable to any "good" province. If it's supposed to model the historical significance of particular cities as ruling seats, then it should only happen in places and times where that actually existed, France in 769 not being one of them. If it's neither, then what purpose does this serve?
 

Gilles Binchois

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I disagree because, historically speaking courts in feudal countries have often been dependent on which dynasty was in power and even then moved around a lot. The AI should desire provinces and duchies based on an estimate of their value and try to take provinces that would be valuable to it, if it has a convenient way to do so. And in the same vein have a set of weights for where to place it's capital.

I agree.

Obviously you can define capital significance in different ways - as a holy site of coronation, center of power, center of trade/wealth, culture and so on.
Not sure how a game can model all this, so system of weights and values makes sense, perhaps with coronation points, trade points, culture/learning points, power base/ducal inheritance points. Then these points could either justify creation of a capital or somehow be turned into extra bonuses upon conquest, providing some incentive to move capitals if there is de jure claim.

To give some examples,

You have Aachen very deliberately chosen by Charlemagne for the Carolingians, with administrative counts and missi projecting legal authority throughout the realms.
Then the Ottonians (and later kings) coronated there, Otto I moved from his power base in Saxony to Italy, which didn't go so well, and then he had to face a civil war and revolts back home.

After feudal cellularization,

In France, notably Reims, which Charles VII retook from the English, allowing his coronation there, quite a big deal.

You have places of great investment and learning/universities like Paris for Philip Augustus or Prague for Charles IV.

You have Frederick II who went on crusade, and based his power in Kingdom of Sicily and Italy, not Germany.

Then valuable possessions that could in theory become capitals such as Sicily again, divided from Naples by the Aragonese and ruled by Frederick III, or the Low Countries and Bruges as economic capital vs Brussels as court for the Burgundians, or London vs Westminster.
 

Yeekim

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If it's supposed to model the historical significance of particular cities as ruling seats, then it should only happen in places and times where that actually existed, France in 769 not being one of them. If it's neither, then what purpose does this serve?
The King wants Paris, because it is his "dejure capital". Having realms have different dejure capitals at different times would improve historical accuracy, but imo its not a high priority issue, nor what the OP had in mind.
 

Tatterhood

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The King wants Paris, because it is his "dejure capital". Having realms have different dejure capitals at different times would improve historical accuracy, but imo its not a high priority issue, nor what the OP had in mind.
I'm asking why the mechanic exists, not how it works. Best I can tell the OP was doing much the same.
 

Dolin

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All hail the Sandwich-King:
ck2_10.png


After his nobody daddy died, non one was left to inherite so it went to random vassals:

ck2_16.png


Aquitaine for my brother the Duke of Toulouse

And Paris still together with his revolt buddies going for France.
Will my county finally be left alone?