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Secret Master

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Well I can't comment on the technical side as I do not have a clue.

Because if the game had fiat currencies, 90% of its computing code would relate to making those currencies interact with one another and having economically sane prices.

You could tie it to minerals, but I prefer having currency tied to energy. I can tolerate that abstraction, as everyone needs it in the game.

To put it in perspective:

Vic2, a Paradox game with a far more detailed economy, uses the British pound for all currency. (Detailed as in: has far more goods than energy and minerals, and entire manufacturing processes, plus colonial empires to generate resources)
 

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This is exactly what doesn't make sense, though. With a gold standard, I can in theory turn in a coin for x amount of gold, and the money's value comes from the limited existence of gold. None of that works with energy, though. If I have enough energy credits, can I buy the energy of a nuclear (or fusion) bomb? What would that conversion look like? Would they literally give me a bomb, a horde of pinewood derby cars rolling down a track, a bunch of guys who will run in hamster wheels, barrels of oils, butterfly kisses, what? All of those are energy, after all, yet I'm guessing that the kinetic force involved in my typing isn't redeemable for currency, so what energy is? And in a society where technology makes it even easier to generate energy from even more sources than we have available today, how do you regulate the value of currency?
You're overthinking things. On the gold standard, banks are designed so they can hold a certain amount of gold. On the energy standard, energy transfer stations would be setup to accept currency for energy.

As for how the currency would be regulated, quite easily: the government dictates that one credit may be exchanged for one one hundred kilojoules of energy, then since currency is probably all electronic every so often they pay government workers, suppliers, or contractors with credits out of nowhere rather than credits from taxation so the currency doesn't deflate. As for the atomic bomb, I rather doubt those would be for sale anywhere except in perhaps a fanatically militarist society.
 

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As for the atomic bomb, I rather doubt those would be for sale anywhere except in perhaps a fanatically militarist society.

I disagree - in a space-faring civilization with FTL travel, I could see nuculear weapons becoming FAR more common. I imagine they could be used to produce large ammount of energry very quickly if a way to capture it could be devised. They also would be good for breaking up mountains for mining, and who knows how many other applications we can't explore with the stuff right now because it would be harmful to people. Nearly unlimited space has it's perks.
 

eon47

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That doesn't really address my points. How do I pump energy into these hypothetical stations? What forms of energy are acceptable? It's kind of like having matter as your standard--there's so much of it, and so many kinds, that it just doesn't make sense. What energy is tied to credits and what energy is not, and how do you regulate and enforce that? How do I collect my one one hundred kilojoules--how does the average joe handle the energy he or she transfers their currency into, especially given that futuristic technology would likely lead to dealing with massive amounts of it? I joke about bombs and ferrets, but only because the question is so problematic that those options are as (un)reasonable as any. And this is just the tip of the iceberg--if energy is equivalent to gold under the gold standard, does that mean I could horde old car batteries and cash their charge in for currency when the exchange rate is favorable like one might do with jewelry under a gold standard economy? I can go on and on.

IMO, overthinking energy currency is like overthinking pew pew noises in space or hacking the alien mothership in Independence Day with a laptop--it takes away the fun of the world, and so in one sense should be avoided, but in another it should be encouraged, as it reminds us of the boundaries between fantasy and reality and gives us a finer appreciation of the world's complexity. I hope I don't come across as harsh; I just think people here are mistaking the nature of Stellaris.
 
Last edited:

trcanberra

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Energy is money nowadays - seems a logical extension, though I agree the portability part makes one pause for thought.
 

The Founder

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Well I can't comment on the technical side as I do not have a clue.

If it could work... Yeah it might be nerdy but so much could be built off it. Can I weaken my rivals currency and rek his imports. Can I trade war. Can I manage my post war hyler inflation.

Like pdox does good at this but I always feel like if they could make the next step it could be amazing. Politics too.
One part is the complexity of simulating currencies.
The other part is making a AI that can actually play that part of the game.

In Currency Exchange 2017, the AI Team would do nothing but optimise the AI to make decent decisions in the Area of Currency Exchange.
In this game the AI also has to do decisions of: Diplomacy, Shipmovement, Planetbuilding.

You could ask them to add a chess minigame right now. The mechanics would be simple. Adapting the AI to be able to play it? Not even remotely as simle.

If I have enough energy credits, can I buy the energy of a nuclear (or fusion) bomb? What would that conversion look like?
And if I had enough money during Goldstandart times, I could have literally bought a Mountain worth of Gold. How would that have worked? It is not like my local bank has a mountain worth of Gold in thier Vaults to begin with.
Answer that for Goldstandart times and I will answer it for Energy Standart times. If it is in any way likely, there should be precendent in History...
 

monsterfurby

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I think the first time I ever saw the "energy credits" trope used was in a Star Trek game (might even have been STO), where they worked around the issue of the Federation not having a monetary civilian economy by introducing "replicator credits" which were ostensibly supposed to represent personal allocations of replicator resources to Starfleet personnel (and possibly civilians). It's a crappy workaround since this IS essentially a currency, but I suppose it kind of illustrates the point. A currency can be based on any commodity, really, and energy is one. Whether an "energy standard" is really a good idea... well... Enron sure thought so.

For flavor purposes at the very least, and more notably for plausibility purposes, I however think that cash should play a role in Stellaris somehow. Maybe even just as a passive effect dependent on economic policy (think Federation vs. Ferengi).
 

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I kinda skimmed this thread and ive seen lot of detailed explanations AGAINST energy credits but heres one simple one FOR energy credits. What does money represent ultimately? Productive Value. What is the one thing all advanced civilizations value? Energy whether its from solar power or coal fire plants or oil from combustible cars. Hell many currencies today are at least partially backed by Oil Commodity pricing. I havnt seen anyone mention this fact when they derail currencies backed by commodities.
 

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I kinda skimmed this thread and ive seen lot of detailed explanations AGAINST energy credits but heres one simple one FOR energy credits. What does money represent ultimately? Productive Value. What is the one thing all advanced civilizations value? Energy whether its from solar power or coal fire plants or oil from combustible cars. Hell many currencies today are at least partially backed by Oil Commodity pricing. I havnt seen anyone mention this fact when they derail currencies backed by commodities.

To be honest, I think this discussion has been kind of derailed by the whole plausibility debate. It should focus more on whether or not the system feels right in science fiction. I personally can recall more instances in sci-fi of money being a source of conflict (=interesting storytelling) than energy.
 

eon47

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And if I had enough money during Goldstandart times, I could have literally bought a Mountain worth of Gold. How would that have worked? It is not like my local bank has a mountain worth of Gold in thier Vaults to begin with.
Answer that for Goldstandart times and I will answer it for Energy Standart times. If it is in any way likely, there should be precendent in History...
Ah, but you're missing the fact that energy is far, far more common even in our present society compared to gold. Factor in exponential growth in production due to things like fusion reactors becoming commonplace, and the energy of a nuclear bomb might well be worth something like a couple American cents, not whatever a mountain of gold would be worth. Y'all gotta get off this gold standard thing--it really, really doesn't translate.
 

The Founder

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Ah, but you're missing the fact that energy is far, far more common even in our present society compared to gold. Factor in exponential growth in production due to things like fusion reactors becoming commonplace, and the energy of a nuclear bomb might well be worth something like a couple American cents, not whatever a mountain of gold would be worth. Y'all gotta get off this gold standard thing--it really, really doesn't translate.
Why does it not translate? The only question is "how much value can you squeeze in how small a space and weight"?

As we develop more advanced power generation, we naturally need more advanced energy distribution and storage technology. Because we will find ways to use that power.
I already pointed out that Fuel Cells could be a natural path to go about that storage/transprot issue. Basically they are just chemical batteries where you use power to produce the fuel. Stuff like Graphene Super-capacitors might also be developed.

It used to be that Aluminium was more valuable then Gold and Silver, back when we first produced it 1825.
Then we developed indistrualised Electricity Production. Now the price dropped so low, we literally make cans of soda out of it. And the contents are worth more then the can! it is ludicrous if you told a scientist from 1825 that would happen, and yet it did.

On another Forum I likened Fusion to the "Fire of the Space age civilisation".
Controling Fire allowed us progress in totally new technological ventures. The entirety from the Bronze to the Modern age would be impossible without fire.
 

eon47

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Why does it not translate? The only question is "how much value can you squeeze in how small a space and weight"?

As we develop more advanced power generation, we naturally need more advanced energy distribution and storage technology. Because we will find ways to use that power.
I already pointed out that Fuel Cells could be a natural path to go about that storage/transprot issue. Basically they are just chemical batteries where you use power to produce the fuel. Stuff like Graphene Super-capacitors might also be developed.

It used to be that Aluminium was more valuable then Gold and Silver, back when we first produced it 1825.
Then we developed indistrualised Electricity Production. Now the price dropped so low, we literally make cans of soda out of it. And the contents are worth more then the can! it is ludicrous if you told a scientist from 1825 that would happen, and yet it did.

On another Forum I likened Fusion to the "Fire of the Space age civilisation".
Controling Fire allowed us progress in totally new technological ventures. The entirety from the Bronze to the Modern age would be impossible without fire.
What you note about aluminum goes against the feasibility of an energy standard--as you say, what is valuable can be made increasingly less valuable with technology, and this is especially true of energy in Stellaris. I mentioned this earlier, so try rereading my posts--you don't seem to be addressing my points.
 

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What you note about aluminum goes against the feasibility of an energy standard--as you say, what is valuable can be made increasingly less valuable with technology, and this is especially true of energy in Stellaris. I mentioned this earlier, so try rereading my posts--you don't seem to be addressing my points.
Increasing energy density does not change a thing. Just how much power a single unit of "energy credits" represents. And how effective the storage medium needs to be.
A single unit of energy could be a big as the yearly output of our world right now. A single power plant T1 produces several times that.
Just them operating in those ballparks of power generation and consumtion means they need proper storage and transmission options for the power. No mater how much energy humans produce, we always find something for wich that production is barely enough.
The US Navy has two very interesting uses of Nuclear Power, aside from "Very long lasting fuel without much need to refuel":
1. Power Railguns. Weapons so powerfull, even that nuclear power plant is barely enough to power it. You still need capacitors on top of that.
2. Something that came out from Strategic Concerns: The ability to generate Jet-grade fuel from Saltwater. All you really need is a large enough Powerplant. And you might not need to redevelop Planes to user energy at all.

Another thing for wich our production and transmission is barely enough? Fusion reserach. In a british science institute they use a huge Flywheel/motor/generator combo just to get enough energy density for 10 seconds of fusion.

And you know what is a good example for energy storage? The one your empire in Stellaris uses. Whatever form, whatever tricks they use for that - it can also be used to transfer energy between empires.
 

Sinister2202

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I find Kardashev scale quite interesting, because it seems to base the foundation of a civilization on how much energy they can utilize. In this game, money is so insignificant to be represented... Energy is represented because energy is what runs the civilization, and it's what you compete for or against other empires. It's a universal symbol of how much you can do as an empire. A symbol of power. Just like math is the universal language in this universe. The concept of "currency" is too economic; and economy can only be tied down to one's own system, which aliens wouldn't quite understand.

Energy is the measurement of power, in this case. Even if one doesn't speak the language of the aliens, I'm sure they would understand more energy = the better.
 
Last edited:

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@eon47 Actually, in theory energy is the perfect currency. It can neither be created nor destroyed and everything is composed of it. You can calculate exactly how much energy anything contains, so there is no way to counterfeit it. The downside of course is, that the vast majority of energy is not in a state that can be used to do work or at least not safely. Therefore there is a limit in just what can be used as backing for an energy based currency.

To really be viable one of two things must be true. Either the vast majority of energy produced in the galaxy uses an method that consumes an abundant fuel, the limiting factor would have to be how fast you can get the fuel. The other option is having a way to store use able energy in a very dense form. This could be some sort of super capacitor or antimatter.

I have no idea if this would actually work in reality, given that the conditions are not currently met and may never be, but in Stellaris they may be.
 

eon47

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Increasing energy density does not change a thing. Just how much power a single unit of "energy credits" represents.
Well yeah, that's a huge part of my point. You seem to acknowledge the amount of energy required for FTL travel (by any means), or to propel a battleship at sublight speeds, or for use in who knows how many other technologies such a society would have, most of which are abstracted out of the game. It would be vast. Mind-boggling. One energy credit, by nature of how much energy would be available to such a society, would have to have enormous to reflect that abundance. Yet at the same time, because energy would be so abundant, as a standard, it would, like aluminum, grossly depreciate in value. I could probably buy a Coke for the energy equivalent of many tons of dynamite, or more, which itself is a problem--the bottle of Coke does not require that much energy to make, and yet because the standard is something so common, it is now worth less than itself. Gold gets around this issue by being much scarcer and not having literally (and in multiple senses) universal use and value, but this is not so for energy.

And all of this comes before the silliness of exchanging the currency for energy, which isn't something that can be brushed under the rug by saying it's just a question of how much power is in a credit. I've already made that argument without any response, however, so I won't repeat myself here.

And how effective the storage medium needs to be.
I don't have the same interest in storage mediums that many people in this discussion do. It seems profoundly dangerous for the average person to to be able to store several Hiroshimas in their wallet, which would be required for currency to be transferable into energy and vice versa. There are also interesting logistical questions. Gold in any form has value as currency, but this would mean a car battery could then serve the same role as precious metals in our society--many such issues would have to be addressed. But the entire concept of an energy economy falls apart well before we get to storage capacity, so I won't say more on the subject.

Yes, societies use energy. Yes, we generate energy in tandem with our consumption of it. I do not disagree with any of this. Admittedly, an energy standard would require much energy to be stored and not used if it's to be equivalent to the gold standard, and that raises problems--why should energy in a battery somewhere be considered more valuable than energy somewhere else, and what's to stop someone from creating their own? But no, I don't disagree that energy consumption rises with production. I don't see how that relates to what I've been saying, however.

And you know what is a good example for energy storage? The one your empire in Stellaris uses. Whatever form, whatever tricks they use for that - it can also be used to transfer energy between empires.
As I said above, storage doesn't interest me. It doesn't change the fundamental problems I see in the system, which I've spoken about at length now.
 

eon47

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There might be a way to use energy as currency, but I don't know what that would be, except that it couldn't be anything like the gold standard. (Now that I think about it, it's very strange that we're discussing a system that is antiquated even in the present as a model for how the future will be.) But I don't think everything being composed of energy is a point in it's favor as a currency.

Using a specific fuel would be like using oil as currency. However, other people have already made excellent observations about the pros and cons of that, and I'm afraid I can't add anything new there.
 

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Chocolate gives energy.

So, energy are piles of chocolate bars. A commodity loved by all.

Bars of gold pressed latinum.... err, chocolate goodness?

the-very-best-chocolate-bars-u1.jpg
 

genrtul

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I'm really not sure about an energy backed currency. I mean, look at what happened to the ruble when the price of oil crashed. The ruble's basically a present day energy credit. Oil is pretty cheap and abundant, with huge fluctuations in supply and demand and huge fluctuations in price. It's not a good thing to have backing your currency at all.