Why is Money Energy?
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Well, we are not 100% certain it is not a backed currency anymore. I guess I have to throw out some bigger terms:
Comodity Money.
Representative Money.
Fiat Money.
The Gold coin or Shells used to be Comodity Money.
Everyone working on the Gold or Silver Standarts used Representative Money.
We think we are using Fiat Money. But that is not 100% clear.
For various Economic reasons, everyone decided to back thier Currency with the US Dollar (pegging it to the Dollar). Wich then was still backed by Gold. Basically it was a "Gold Standart once removed" for all those currencies.
Then the US Dollar moved of the Gold Standart. But we are not certain if it had not simply moved to anothe good - the Black Gold, Oil. The OPEC insists on being paid in US Dollar. Wich makes a convincing argument for the US Dollar being backed by Oil.
The energy credit is either Comodity or Representative Money. And we are not certain we even have a proper Fiat Currency right now.
Fiat money - currency backed by cars lol.
I guess it is all very well arguing back and forth pro or anti energy credit but I think a more basic question is in order. Namely how does stellaris economy even work. Do you pay farmers from the state, the state has to buy the farms after all. We know it can't all be communist as many government forms are based on private ownership etc.
So before I can even back a position I would need to know how stellaris economic models even work.
I guess it is all very well arguing back and forth pro or anti energy credit but I think a more basic question is in order. Namely how does stellaris economy even work. Do you pay farmers from the state, the state has to buy the farms after all. We know it can't all be communist as many government forms are based on private ownership etc.
So before I can even back a position I would need to know how stellaris economic models even work.
How does the building and economy work? Infrastructure investment.
Mines need roads.
Powerplants need powerlines.
Hydroponics Farms need access to thier raw material too.
The President orders an Upgrade of the Farm on Earth? That is just infrastructure projects designed to increase the output. Might go as far as cheap building material for the Farmers that want to expand anyway.
OK and who does the work and why? I'm a 24 century man with solar panels; why do I need to work and what am I played for doing government infrastructure work.
Also private sector. What does this do and how does it work. Also do other planets have independent exchange rates?
Also private sector. What does this do and how does it work. Also do other planets have independent exchange rates?
I do like your infrastructure comment however, makes more sense to me as an abstract than the state building everything.
In response to the original question, its not to different to what we use now. A lot of economists refer to the US dollar as the "petro-dollar" as an oil backed currency. Thats an energy resource for you.
Energy would be a universal recourse meaning that it would ideal for such an economy
Just a reminder folks to keep the discussion on topic and away from personal digs at each other.
This topic's done pretty well so far, so keep it up.
This topic's done pretty well so far, so keep it up.
Energy is what keeps a sytem running or in motion.
In an economy, money is energy, because it translates work into comparable and therefor tradeable values, while in the same way fueling the system with demands and chances, creating urges and goals. It keeps the system "society" in motion, while at the same time providing a way to distribute ressources within its boundaries. My guess is, that some higher form of ressource distribution is to be considered a necessity for every higher form of civilization.
Energy credit is perfectly fine for me and as others have said, it is a form of gold standard. My guess is, that in a future where you are travelling between the stars, that there will probably be no lack of matter (minerals), which renders those kinds of ressources, contrary and in comparison to todays situation, almost useless as a standard value to measure currencies against or to use it to fuel some sort of ressource distribution system.
Energy on the other hand - or more likely information - will probably remain limited for a while longer than matter.
And after that? Who knows...
In an economy, money is energy, because it translates work into comparable and therefor tradeable values, while in the same way fueling the system with demands and chances, creating urges and goals. It keeps the system "society" in motion, while at the same time providing a way to distribute ressources within its boundaries. My guess is, that some higher form of ressource distribution is to be considered a necessity for every higher form of civilization.
Energy credit is perfectly fine for me and as others have said, it is a form of gold standard. My guess is, that in a future where you are travelling between the stars, that there will probably be no lack of matter (minerals), which renders those kinds of ressources, contrary and in comparison to todays situation, almost useless as a standard value to measure currencies against or to use it to fuel some sort of ressource distribution system.
Energy on the other hand - or more likely information - will probably remain limited for a while longer than matter.
And after that? Who knows...
Yep, energy makes more sense.
Especially late-game, with ascension and all that. And it'd be anthropocentric to assume that all alien societies have a concept of money. Even humans have outgrown it in many science fiction settings.
Especially late-game, with ascension and all that. And it'd be anthropocentric to assume that all alien societies have a concept of money. Even humans have outgrown it in many science fiction settings.
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I don't think it's particularly anthropocentric to assume that all alien societies have a concept of exchange. Especially since every alien society in Stellaris has the ability to exchange via diplomacy.
And currency is merely a shorthand for exchange. It's a natural extension of the necessity to exchange one good for another. Barter does not work in advanced economies due to inefficiencies.
I just want to point out that yes, there are post-scarcity sci-fi settings and yes, post-scarcity societies can support a post-capitalism and thus post-currency 'pseudo-economy' in which there is little need for trade. And yes, in such a society energy and 'minerals' (building components) would be the critical pieces of such an economy, as together they can fabricate anything else that might be of value.
However,
1) Post-scarcity does not mean that the government and economy would necessarily change to do away with capitalism, and indeed, the government types don't seem to imply that post-capitalism is an innate feature of all governments. Even in Star Trek, not every society is post-capitalism even though every society is basically post-scarcity thanks to widespread technology. Stellaris's economy system (if indeed it does reflect a post-scarcity galaxy) doesn't support any sci-fi setting I'm familiar with, because most settings acknowledge that post-scarcity doesn't automatically result in universal post-capitalism principles. Rather, those settings are diverse.
2) It's not really clear that Stellaris is actually post-scarcity. True, energy+minerals fits the mold, but aside from that, the fact that planets require farms seems to preclude post-scarcity altogether (you can't be a post-scarcity society if food is a scarce resource). Also, there is a distinct lack of writing or technologies that support the notion that this is the case, as far as I am aware.
It seems a lot more like people are using post-scarcity as a post-hoc justification for a pretty limited economy system which has extraordinarily few moving parts. I like Stellaris, but its economy needs improvement. If it is intended to be a post-scarcity world then fine, double-down on that and explore what that means for different kinds of governments and their people, because currently the game doesn't. Expand what 'minerals' means and make them a meaningful game mechanic in and of themselves.
But honestly, I'd like to see currency, because currency in some form makes sense in almost every society. How currency is used could be an interesting mechanic in and of itself - I'm not suggesting that currency should just be dumped in to take the place of some of what energy is doing, it should be an internal mechanism for growth and an indication of prosperity. Maybe it's even possible to advance into a post-scarcity, post-capitalism society, and have that be a thing that you can strive for. And if they get around to alien types that are intrinsically non-humanlike, such as hive-minds or cybernetics, then maybe they could exist outside of the normal structure of trade and exchange. But using post-scarcity as a justification for a simplistic economy system, I don't like it.
However,
1) Post-scarcity does not mean that the government and economy would necessarily change to do away with capitalism, and indeed, the government types don't seem to imply that post-capitalism is an innate feature of all governments. Even in Star Trek, not every society is post-capitalism even though every society is basically post-scarcity thanks to widespread technology. Stellaris's economy system (if indeed it does reflect a post-scarcity galaxy) doesn't support any sci-fi setting I'm familiar with, because most settings acknowledge that post-scarcity doesn't automatically result in universal post-capitalism principles. Rather, those settings are diverse.
2) It's not really clear that Stellaris is actually post-scarcity. True, energy+minerals fits the mold, but aside from that, the fact that planets require farms seems to preclude post-scarcity altogether (you can't be a post-scarcity society if food is a scarce resource). Also, there is a distinct lack of writing or technologies that support the notion that this is the case, as far as I am aware.
It seems a lot more like people are using post-scarcity as a post-hoc justification for a pretty limited economy system which has extraordinarily few moving parts. I like Stellaris, but its economy needs improvement. If it is intended to be a post-scarcity world then fine, double-down on that and explore what that means for different kinds of governments and their people, because currently the game doesn't. Expand what 'minerals' means and make them a meaningful game mechanic in and of themselves.
But honestly, I'd like to see currency, because currency in some form makes sense in almost every society. How currency is used could be an interesting mechanic in and of itself - I'm not suggesting that currency should just be dumped in to take the place of some of what energy is doing, it should be an internal mechanism for growth and an indication of prosperity. Maybe it's even possible to advance into a post-scarcity, post-capitalism society, and have that be a thing that you can strive for. And if they get around to alien types that are intrinsically non-humanlike, such as hive-minds or cybernetics, then maybe they could exist outside of the normal structure of trade and exchange. But using post-scarcity as a justification for a simplistic economy system, I don't like it.
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I don't remember the devs ever using that reasoning, where are you getting this from? SMAC definitely wasn't a post-scarcity setting.
It's a game. It needs a resource that at once simulates fuel and currency while at the same time being usable by a multitude of separately evolved races living light years apart hence energy. Why is that so hard to understand? It's got nothing to do with capitalism or post-scarcity (those all depend on your roleplaying and ethos) or any of that. It's just a vague economic approximation necessitated by the game mechanics.
It's not "necessitated" - they could adjust the game mechanics to support a more robust system - and I suspect they will when they add trade.... but for the time being, yes...you are correct.
Well if my humans use money and the blorg use something else you just find an exchange mechanism somehow. I would love for paradox to experiment with currency exchange rather than global/galactic currency.
@jean luc, I think he means other forum users
@jean luc, I think he means other forum users
The issue from that is the amount of code that would go into managing currency as opposed to the rest of the game. While I am sure there is a market for currency trader simulator 2017 I doubt it is large.
Well I can't comment on the technical side as I do not have a clue.
If it could work... Yeah it might be nerdy but so much could be built off it. Can I weaken my rivals currency and rek his imports. Can I trade war. Can I manage my post war hyler inflation.
Like pdox does good at this but I always feel like if they could make the next step it could be amazing. Politics too.
If it could work... Yeah it might be nerdy but so much could be built off it. Can I weaken my rivals currency and rek his imports. Can I trade war. Can I manage my post war hyler inflation.
Like pdox does good at this but I always feel like if they could make the next step it could be amazing. Politics too.
This is exactly what doesn't make sense, though. With a gold standard, I can in theory turn in a coin for x amount of gold, and the money's value comes from the limited existence of gold. None of that works with energy, though. If I have enough energy credits, can I buy the energy of a nuclear (or fusion) bomb? What would that conversion look like? Would they literally give me a bomb, a horde of pinewood derby cars rolling down a track, a bunch of guys who will run in hamster wheels, barrels of oils, butterfly kisses, what? All of those are energy, after all, yet I'm guessing that the kinetic force involved in my typing isn't redeemable for currency, so what energy is? And in a society where technology makes it even easier to generate energy from even more sources than we have available today, how do you regulate the value of currency?
The only way this energy currency thing makes even a little sense is if you limit it to specific kinds of currency generated under specific circumstances and stored in specific ways. Even then, it doesn't make for a very sensible currency, but then again, this is a game with psychic powers where one can have the technology to uplift pre-sentient species from dumb animals yet not know how to tweak your own genes enough to make your species just a bit smarter. And this is what things boil down to for me: Stellaris's economy makes precisely no sense, and acting like there's some rational explanation for it is pretty silly, but I like space explosions and imagining humanity will make it to the stars some day, so I'm willing to deal with it. I don't like it, but I can accept it considering the payoff. In credits. That I demand the central government exchanges for the energy generated by 10,000,000 ferrets in plastic balls.
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