Why is manual promotion of pops hated?

[Manic Eskimo]

It is enforced by making each pop unique in what it gives. Slaves give you taxes, freemen give you Manpower and Citizens provide research.

OK you obviously haven't understood my point at all.

 

[Denkt]

OK you obviously haven't understood my point at all.

Do it matter if the scale is local or global?

 

[Manic Eskimo]

Do it matter if the scale is local or global?

I think it should because

Societies have classes. Some people need to do the dirty work, some people need to do the middle class work. A city full of aristocratic citizens would be a city where nothing would get done. They're called elites for a reason. It's because there aren't many of them. A city full of aristocrats wouldn't function in a time where slaves were used for everything.

 

[Denkt]

As I said Before we don't know how it work on the local level, such as we don't know if you even can have monotone cities and if possible there could be penalties.

For the game, the scale is global as the resources are treated as global currencies which mean the global amount of each type of pop is important. But if these pops are unproductive based on the local level it Obviously is going to impact the global level.

For example if Citizens get unhappy beacuse they want slaves in the same city, you get punished by having to many Citizens compared to your slaves.

On the global level you would get punished by the ahead of time penalty (Assuming that exist).

 

[Esben_DRK]

My concern is that the gradual move towards games with a historical skin, but where all the causal mechanics of history have been removed, makes the game less fun. In HoI4, for example, the Pacific, Eastern and Balkan Theaters were made impossible because of poor design. With what we know about population groups in I:R, this kind of state-organised promotion didn't happen (Since extending Roman citizenship to e.g. the Latin and Social allies doesn't give them citizenship in I:R), and likely couldn't have happened. Social developments in e.g. Iberia and Gaul were gradual, happening over centuries, and without any central force coordinating it.
Victoria 1 was an insane and horrible click-fest for any large nation, and in return it gave you as player the option of converting all your POPs to Craftsmen and Clerks if you wanted. I had a Germany with literally 0 farmers (And also no colonies) - that should be impossible to achieve. I don't think some of the worst and most anti-historical parts of Ricky is something you'd want to emulate.

It's even worse that this manual promotion is based on a single characters abilities as a wizard. It may not be as wacky as the randomly generated wizards of EU4, and player agency may still be a factor, but it's still immersion-breaking and I fear that, like EU4, it will replace any attempt at simulating not just a plausible, but at this point possible, history.
At this point it's too early to know whether these points are deal-breaking. The absolute impossibility of simulating WW2 was a deal-breaker for HoI4, I hope I:R avoids similar mistakes.

 

[Johan]

From what I understand you can for example conquer Carthage, empty its population and send Roman population to replace it.

Doing this is a bit cost ineffective.

1 - You can only move a pop to an adjacent province, or across a seazone. Which means that to reach the city of carthage from rome itself, you'd have to go through gibraltar, which is somewhere between 80 and 100 provinces to pass through. Less move it down to 50 if we jump along the coast where possible.

2 - The city of Cartage at the start of the game has 28 pops and the entire province of Carthage has 181 pops. There's 6 other provinces in what is modern Tunisia, but lets disregard that.

3 - Moving pops away from the province of Cartage would be on average 3 moves.

4 - Moving a single pop currently costs 20 civic power.

Lets assume the population growth of Carthage until you take it is offset by the amount of slaves you take from the city as you conquer and occupy it.

Moving all of carthages pops away from the Province of Carthage would cost about 10,860 civic power. 181 pops, 3 moves on average, and cost of 20.

Moving down 13 pops to have 1 pop in each city in the province of Carthage would cost about 15,000 civic power. 15 pops, 50 moves & 20 cost.

A large empire (which gets +3 power bonus due to government rank, if ideas match), with a good ruler would end up with maybe 8 power each month.

A cost of 25860 power, would take about 3230 months to accumulate, or about 270 years. ie, spending pretty much all civic power Rome would get through the entire campaign.

And thats just 1 province.

 

[klopkr]

@Johan What's even the point of moving a pop then? What would you even gain?

 

[DerMaulwurf]

And what about pop decline? At its apex the city of Rome was totally dependent on receiving food shipments from Africa and Egypt (and earlier Sicily). What happens if these provinces are lost?

 

[Denkt]

@Johan What's even the point of moving a pop then? What would you even gain?

Colonization, as it have been mentioned to be in the game?

And what about pop decline? At its apex the city of Rome was totally dependent on receiving food shipments from Africa and Egypt (and earlier Sicily). What happens if these provinces are lost?

It seems each pop make pop growth in that city slower, with enough pops, growth should start to become negative without stuff that increase it such as grain.

 

[klopkr]

Colonization, as it have been mentioned to be in the game?


It seems each pop make pop growth in that city slower, with enough pops, growth should start to become negative without stuff that increase it such as grain.

Oh so you colonize by moving pops one or two provinces over?

I keep hearing about colonization in this game but I don't know what anyone means by that. Like empty provinces? Where are they on the map?

 

[Denkt]

Oh so you colonize by moving pops one or two provinces over?

I keep hearing about colonization in this game but I don't know what anyone means by that. Like empty provinces? Where are they on the map?

It have not been mentioned how it will work but it may not be like you need to move many pops over in such case and you can probably use the same pops used in previous colonization to colonize neighbour lands.

 

[cools0812]

@Johan
do pops migrate by themselves? like in Stellaris?

 

[Dovska]

Doing this is a bit cost ineffective.

1 - You can only move a pop to an adjacent province, or across a seazone. Which means that to reach the city of carthage from rome itself, you'd have to go through gibraltar, which is somewhere between 80 and 100 provinces to pass through. Less move it down to 50 if we jump along the coast where possible.

2 - The city of Cartage at the start of the game has 28 pops and the entire province of Carthage has 181 pops. There's 6 other provinces in what is modern Tunisia, but lets disregard that.

3 - Moving pops away from the province of Cartage would be on average 3 moves.

4 - Moving a single pop currently costs 20 civic power.

Lets assume the population growth of Carthage until you take it is offset by the amount of slaves you take from the city as you conquer and occupy it.

Moving all of carthages pops away from the Province of Carthage would cost about 10,860 civic power. 181 pops, 3 moves on average, and cost of 20.

Moving down 13 pops to have 1 pop in each city in the province of Carthage would cost about 15,000 civic power. 15 pops, 50 moves & 20 cost.

A large empire (which gets +3 power bonus due to government rank, if ideas match), with a good ruler would end up with maybe 8 power each month.

A cost of 25860 power, would take about 3230 months to accumulate, or about 270 years. ie, spending pretty much all civic power Rome would get through the entire campaign.

And thats just 1 province.

So I guess that doing something like fully Romanizing Gaul and Hispania is going to be prohibitively expensive as well, right?

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Doing this is a bit cost ineffective.

1 - You can only move a pop to an adjacent province, or across a seazone. Which means that to reach the city of carthage from rome itself, you'd have to go through gibraltar, which is somewhere between 80 and 100 provinces to pass through. Less move it down to 50 if we jump along the coast where possible.

2 - The city of Cartage at the start of the game has 28 pops and the entire province of Carthage has 181 pops. There's 6 other provinces in what is modern Tunisia, but lets disregard that.

3 - Moving pops away from the province of Cartage would be on average 3 moves.

4 - Moving a single pop currently costs 20 civic power.

Lets assume the population growth of Carthage until you take it is offset by the amount of slaves you take from the city as you conquer and occupy it.

Moving all of carthages pops away from the Province of Carthage would cost about 10,860 civic power. 181 pops, 3 moves on average, and cost of 20.

Moving down 13 pops to have 1 pop in each city in the province of Carthage would cost about 15,000 civic power. 15 pops, 50 moves & 20 cost.

A large empire (which gets +3 power bonus due to government rank, if ideas match), with a good ruler would end up with maybe 8 power each month.

A cost of 25860 power, would take about 3230 months to accumulate, or about 270 years. ie, spending pretty much all civic power Rome would get through the entire campaign.

And thats just 1 province.

So the Strait of Sicily is not considered a sea connection?

 

[blackbirdgriffi]

So I guess that doing something like fully Romanizing Gaul and Hispania is going to be prohibitively expensive as well, right?

Well here Johan speaks of population movement (in johan's exemple he shows moving one of the most historically rich and inhabited region of the medditeranean regions and then moving them to Italy), while you talk about culture shift from gaulish and Hispanian culture under roman control.

Given how culture conversion works, it would be fairly different to move local population to Rome compared to just converting the local through which ever mean,

Although I really hope culture conversion and population are linked mechanics via a colonization system

So the Strait of Sicily is not considered a sea connection?

Here Johan talks about 1 sea zone so this would mean that either of the sicilian strait or the strait from Sicily to Carthage is composed of more than one sea Zone, the latter making quite some sense

 

[SchwarzKatze]

So I guess that doing something like fully Romanizing Gaul and Hispania is going to be prohibitively expensive as well, right?

Johan's answer to "Do pops slowly assimilate into state religion and/or culture?" and "Can we convert culture by spending some mana?" were both "no"

 

[Dysydent]

Look at opening post in #5.
Conquest turns citizens into freemen and freemen into slaves

That’s something I really dislike. How about giving us a choice? I may not want to sack the city that’s my culture for example, I want to use its people and resources, and I don’t want same-culture slaves either.

Second, when a city surrendered to Romans, they spared it, and that could be an interesting mechanic - surrendering against overwhelming odds but you can’t sack the province and you get a lot of different culture pops that may grow and rebel in the future.

Third, what about civil wars? Will the same mechanic work then, reducing your country to a slave-state with no citizens?


Frankly, this is way too strict and arbitrary.

 

[Johan]

So the Strait of Sicily is not considered a sea connection?

The "strait" between Sicily and Carthage is a several seazones wide.

 

[Dysydent]

Johan's answer to "Do pops slowly assimilate into state religion and/or culture?" and "Can we convert culture by spending some mana?" were both "no"

That’s extremely unrealistic. What about something like a Gallo-Roman culture emerging? Or Gallic aristocracy being promoted by the Romans and accepting Roman customs in turn? Cultures should assimilate, especially when a civ’s attitude encourages it.

 

[Johan]

Johan's answer to "Do pops slowly assimilate into state religion and/or culture?" and "Can we convert culture by spending some mana?" were both "no"

There are ways for assimilation though. Which will be talked about later.