Why is manual promotion of pops hated?

[jamesmcm]

Because it's boring. It involves a lot of micromanagement to remember to spend the points to do it (much like with development and large nations in EU4), and it also means there is no underlying simulation system there to work with (i.e. natural development and culture change of pops depending on attacks on the province, being at peace, decisions, etc.)

It just makes it feel more like a board game or mobile game (spend mana to evolve your pop), rather than using the fact it's running on a full computer to provide a more interesting simulation.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Because it's boring. It involves a lot of micromanagement to remember to spend the points to do it (much like with development and large nations in EU4), and it also means there is no underlying simulation system there to work with (i.e. natural development and culture change of pops depending on attacks on the province, being at peace, decisions, etc.)

It just makes it feel more like a board game or mobile game (spend mana to evolve your pop), rather than using the fact it's running on a full computer to provide a more interesting simulation.

Natural development will involve the birth and death of pops.

Having all your slaves promote out of nowhere would be strange. Changing social classes to that extent is very different from what is (functionally) changing jobs in V2.

If you get auto promotion, and Rome has 10 slave pops, you'd suddenly have 10% of the slaves effectively just changing overnight to "freemen". I remain sceptical that this could just happen without some deliberate intervention by the state or ruler (represented by power points being spent).

 

[Mackus]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

In my opinion, manually converting pops to bureaucrats, soldiers, and officers makes sense, since those are essentially government employees, but all other conversions should've been automatic and gradual (except in centrally planned economies).

Same for Imperator. Sometimes manual promotion makes sense, sometimes gradual automatic promotion makes sense.
Most pops would probably slowly change their class depending on circumstances. Poor/devastated provinces could have freemen selling themselves into slavery to escape starvation, and impoverished citizen would fall into freemen class. But if province was rich and prosperous, slaves would buy themselves into freedom, freemen could buy themselves citizenship, and tribals would willingly civilise themselves into becoming freemen.
Of course, it'd still be possible for player action to promote and demote pops.
Demoting pops of rebellious provinces as punishment would be obvious example, but also promoting them to placate them - similar to EU4 raise/lower autonomy button, except you'd sometimes want to use carrot rather than stick even if you have enough legions to crush rebellion, since citizens provide research.

 

[Rubiconal]

I liked manual promotion of pops in small and medium states in Victoria 1. But in large states became it a hassle, especially in the late game. Ever played a civilized China in Victoria 1?

A solution could be some kind of demise system: A ruler only has the time to directly manage a limited number of territories. The rest is delegated to others, you can give governors rough guidelines but the actual management is done by local rulers outside your demise.

So kind of like sectors in stellaris or like crusader kings?
This would probably be needed since this is the biggest map paradox has ever made.

 

[Jorlaan]

From what I've gathered through years of playing Victoria 2 and being active on its forum is that people HATED manual pop promotion in Victoria 1 for the most part. It could be useful and not-so-bad when your country was small, but most didn't stay that way and it became a completely tedious chore that people HATED.
I'm actually scared to grow a large empire now if I have to control it all manually...
That is a major turn off from what had been looking like an awesome game, despite it's early stage.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Natural development will involve the birth and death of pops.

Having all your slaves promote out of nowhere would be strange. Changing social classes to that extent is very different from what is (functionally) changing jobs in V2.

If you get auto promotion, and Rome has 10 slave pops, you'd suddenly have 10% of the slaves effectively just changing overnight to "freemen". I remain sceptical that this could just happen without some deliberate intervention by the state or ruler (represented by power points being spent).

EU:R pops can be fractional.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

EU:R pops can be fractional.

...whilst growing or declining.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

...whilst growing or declining.

EU:R pops are dynamic, so they are always growing or declining.

 

[kolpo]

So kind of like sectors in stellaris or like crusader kings?
This would probably be needed since this is the biggest map paradox has ever made.

Yes

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

EU:R pops are dynamic, so they are always growing or declining.

I must have misread.
I could have sworn only one pop at a time was subject to change in a given city.


That doesn't change the point though.
Auto promotion or demotion would result in (approximately) 10% of the slave population being spontaneously freed in the scenario I gave. It might be a little more or a little less, depending on what is growing or declining at the time, but it's still a very sudden, large change spontaneously happening when it should require state intervention for that size of shift.

 

[Batano]

I don't mind promoting Pops manually, I actually think I will enjoy that more than something that happens in the background (I like having player agency). What I hope though is, that with the sheer amount of provinces we will have a good interface to do so and don't have to click on every province/state thingy manually as that would be getting slightly out of hand in my current opinion. But in general I find it hard to do any judgement without having played the game ever.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

I must have misread.
I could have sworn only one pop at a time was subject to change in a given city.


That doesn't change the point though.
Auto promotion or demotion would result in (approximately) 10% of the slave population being spontaneously freed in the scenario I gave. It might be a little more or a little less, depending on what is growing or declining at the time, but it's still a very sudden, large change spontaneously happening when it should require state intervention for that size of shift.

I said EU:R, not I:R. If it's confirmed that only one pop per province can change at a time then I'd be really disappointed.

I don't quite follow. In EU:R, these changes are gradual, so your slave pop would, say, decrease by 0.03 per month, and the income would gradually decrease to 99.7%, 99.4%, etc.
If half-pops do nothing in I:R then it would be a really bad regression.

 

[Manic Eskimo]

The more I read and the more I think about this the more worried I'm getting. But not for the same reasons as others. I'm not worried about excessive clicks. I'm starting to envision cities with bad resources being tech hubs full of citizens pumping out research and cities with good resources being hubs of production full of slaves. As long as you have sufficient tech output from your home areas conquest and demoting large numbers of pops won't be a problem.

That is how I manage my planets in Stellaris production planets and research planets

I still don't think we have nearly enough information but the more I think about this the less I like it.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

I have to stop responding whilst half sunblinded.

I need a less glare-prone tablet.

Sorry about that mistake.

I *think* from context a growing or declining pop will have either full or partial effect, there'll just be a progress bar indicating time to it changing over. I'm not sure though, and I think we'll need another DD related to pops in more detail.

 

[Denkt]

The more I read and the more I think about this the more worried I'm getting. But not for the same reasons as others. I'm not worried about excessive clicks. I'm starting to envision cities with bad resources being tech hubs full of citizens pumping out research and cities with good resources being hubs of production full of slaves. As long as you have sufficient tech output from your home areas conquest and demoting large numbers of pops won't be a problem.

Non of the pop is mentioned to provide resources, I suspect buildings will. So if you want to increase production of a specific resources you have to move people to that province so you can build more buildings that produce the resource.

The next DD will be about the economy so hopefully it will tell us more about how resource production work. Im not sure we should even talk about good or bad resources because there is nothing that Point towards specific resources being more valuable than others, like pops you probably want them all.

There seems to be resources that boost different pops so you can probably specialize your provinces but that may only be practical for somebody who want to build tall because of the amount of monarch Points involved. It would be like development in EUIV.

 

[Manic Eskimo]

Non of the pop is mentioned to provide resources, I suspect buildings will. So if you want to increase production of a specific resources you have to move people to that province so you can build more buildings that produce the resource.

The next DD will be about the economy so hopefully it will tell us more about how resource production work. Im not sure we should even talk about good or bad resources because there is nothing that Point towards specific resources being more valuable than others, like pops you probably want them all.

There seems to be resources that boost different pops so you can probably specialize your provinces but that may only be practical for somebody who want to build tall because of the amount of monarch Points involved. It would be like development in EUIV.

Fair enough we don't know that, but we don't know that it doesn't either. Not that it matters, it might even make it worse. The point still stands no matter what effect pops have on production. It might be possible to have your home cities full of citizens producing tech and your outside cities producing manpower and income.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Fair enough we don't know that, but we don't know that it doesn't either. Not that it matters, it might even make it worse. The point still stands no matter what effect pops have on production. It might be possible to have your home cities full of citizens producing tech and your outside cities producing manpower and income.

So.... stripping the recently conquered lands of money and resources, and funneling it back to support the heartland of the Empire?

I can't think of *any* Empires that ever did that...
Nope, not one.

 

[Denkt]

So.... stripping the recently conquered lands of money and resources, and funneling it back to support the heartland of the Empire?

I can't think of *any* Empires that ever did that...
Nope, not one.

From what I understand you can for example conquer Carthage, empty its population and send Roman population to replace it.

Fair enough we don't know that, but we don't know that it doesn't either. Not that it matters, it might even make it worse. The point still stands no matter what effect pops have on production. It might be possible to have your home cities full of citizens producing tech and your outside cities producing manpower and income.

Slaves will be sent to capital cities on city sack and eventually you will be forced to basically promote the old nobility back to their Place or otherwise lag behind in research. But as you are saying the older pops of your country are more likely not to be slaves because all conquered pops starts as slaves or freemen, never as Citizens.

We don't know Everything, like Maybe your Citizens get happiness penalty if they do not have slaves and there could even be caps on how many of each pop you can have.​

 

[Manic Eskimo]

So.... stripping the recently conquered lands of money and resources, and funneling it back to support the heartland of the Empire?

I can't think of *any* Empires that ever did that...
Nope, not one.

wow easy there.

Societies have classes. Some people need to do the dirty work, some people need to do the middle class work. A city full of aristocratic citizens would be a city where nothing would get done. They're called elites for a reason. It's because there aren't many of them. A city full of aristocrats wouldn't function in a time where slaves were used for everything.

 

[Denkt]

Societies have classes. Some people need to do the dirty work, some people need to do the middle class work. A city full of aristocratic citizens would be a city where nothing would get done. They're called elites for a reason. It's because there aren't many of them. A city full of aristocrats wouldn't function in a time where slaves were used for everything.

It is enforced by making each pop unique in what it gives. Slaves give you taxes, freemen give you Manpower and Citizens provide research.