Why is manual promotion of pops hated?

[Gunthah]

Because promoting manually pops is unrealistic and lazy and at the same time annoying and boring. Adding politics and ways to incentivize organic pops growth and promotions would have created a more realistic, stimolating and nuanced experience, and at the same time it would have been less annoying and the progression of your reforms would have been something to look forward to. Meh, it will end up like development(which it tries to copy) and culture conversions in EU4. Things people only do because they sometimes need to or because it sounds fun, so it will create huge static blobs with mostly underdeveloped and unchanged pops.

Exactly. In EU:Rome you could influence promotion through policies, but you got the sense that these were natural processes going on in your population. All the population in the empire staying as it is unless the central government spends some abstraction points one tiny pop at a time seems boring and pretty unrealistic.

 

[Borgratz]

In general, I think it's somewhat silly to hate on the gameplay elements, yet.

We have a very limited idea of what the actual gameplay is going to be like and mostly have to fill in the blanks by looking for similiar mechanics in other paradox games. Who knows if pops are going to be something you have to constantly mess with (like a stellaris planet) or something you only occasionaly think about, when you have a specific plan or points left over (like development in EU4) or if both of those are wrong and it's going to be a new kind of gameplay loop.

So we should all come together, hold hands and hate on them for their historical blunders instead! Those we can already judge properly :>

 

[Denkt]

Im pretty sure they would give Tools that allow promotion and moving of several pops.

 

[klopkr]

I'm going to rule over a stagnant unchanging empire or min maxing all the pops with a million clicks.

Seriously who wants that? Why can't it be both? Why can't they change on their own and let you spend some stuff if you want to influence it.

 

[Johan]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

 

[cplfernandez]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

I think direct player influence is fun when combined with a passive system so I'm excited for I:R. My biggest problem with development in EU4 is that playing expansive makes your land feel so stale due to it not developing at the rate the ai's around you.

Do unaccepted pops grow at the same rate as say Romans do in Rome? I'd love if unattended cultures that are allowed to flourish in your empire would become a bigger threat over time. I feel it would be a good natural limiter to fast expansion.

 

[cools0812]

And is the addition of pop dynamism constantly complained in V2 community? From what I observe it's not.
With utmost repect, then probably the majority desired something like manual pop-promotion alongside with automatic pop promotion, haven't this ever crossed your mind Mr. Johan? A black or white mindset wont help a lot in game design.
People are complaining mostly not about the addition of manual pop-promotion, but the removal of automatic pop-promotion or let's say pop dynamism.

 

[Gunthah]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

I'm a bit confused.

Its not the sequel to Vicky 2.

Its not the sequel to EU4.

Its not the sequel to HoI4.

Its not the sequel to CK2.

The pop system in EU:Rome gave the sense of a population that was doing its thing though you could try to influence it from the top. I can only speak for myself, but I suspect some of us were hoping for a fleshed out version of EU:Rome's system, whereas what was described feels like a replacement with a static population you have to act upon to see any changes.

Maybe the previous system was not malleable enough, but it felt like there was something going on within your empire.

Obviously I haven't seen the game so I might be completely wrong.

 

[lucaluca]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

Wow i didnt know about it... but the Vic 2 system is good, a bit too complex for the sake of being complex but it feels alive, seeing pops grow and factories appear is a great feeling

But I like the idea of manual promotion as well, I don’t know what’s wrong with it for people to be upset. The important thing is that pops should be tied to politics and characters, let’s say lots of freemen, the plebeian party wins, lots of slave, risk of revolts, lots of tribesmen, slaves want better treatment, freemen want more rights, citizens want to keep their privilege etc

 

[Draky]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

Wait, am I reading this right? Are you saying that the removal of manual pop promotion in Vicky 2 was one of the most complained changes from Vicky 1?

Are you sure your data is correct? Because that makes very little sense.

 

[lucaluca]

Wait, am I reading this right? Are you saying that the removal of manual pop promotion in Vicky 2 was one of the most complained changes from Vicky 1?

Are you sure your data is correct? Because that makes very little sense.

Well I think he made the games so he would know more than you do?

 

[Friedrich von Deutschland]

Well I think he made the games so he would know more than you do?

About how well received certain changes were? Not necessarily, especially in this case where what he is saying runs directly counter to our own experiences.

 

[Franconian]

The Vicky is strong in the Rome fans

 

[Nyrael]

Wait, am I reading this right? Are you saying that the removal of manual pop promotion in Vicky 2 was one of the most complained changes from Vicky 1?

Are you sure your data is correct? Because that makes very little sense.

A great deal of people complained, and still complain, about that, yes.
I disagree, manual promotions were annoying. Though in defense of those who want it in Vicky, the Victorian period was the period where cultural assimilations of populace became systematic and administered by the state, aka it makes sense there. Being able to quickly affect the class of your citizens, change their culture, and change their religion makes absolutely no sense for Roman, Medieval, or a Renaissance game though. FFS, the Roman culture started dying while the Roman Empire was still the Big Bad Boss exactly because it couldn't do all this shit. Not to mention that Romans couldn't even convert their peninsula to their culture, and instead shared it with other Italian cultures.

 

[Nikolai]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

On the contrary, it was the best change between the two.

 

[SchwarzKatze]

Manual pop-promotion was in Vicky, and the removal of it was one of the most complained about changes from V2.

When people say they want manual pop-promotion, they mean they want manual pop-promotion, not that they don't want automatic pop-promotion.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

Did ancient populations show much social mobility that would be modelled by automatic promotion and demotion of a given pop?

Would you suddenly get (for example) 1/5 of the slaves of Rome becoming "freemen" (or rather lower class citizens)?

Would 1/10 of the plebian classes "promote" to patrician style groups?

 

[Holy.Death]

Hopefully you won’t have enough mana to promote pops on such a scale, just a few focused promotions

...which makes the lack of internal dynamic even more questionable choice.

I hope they distribute a good portion of those slaves throughout the rest of the state. Probably in proportion of citizens

Johan did say something about "internal movement". My concern would be having a lot of tribesmen in conquered territories - they have to be converted to more useful POPs, which would mean a player will be forced to drop religious points to manually change their status.

 

[DreadLindwyrm]

...which makes the lack of internal dynamic even more questionable choice.


Johan did say something about "internal movement". My concern would be having a lot of tribesmen in conquered territories - they have to be converted to more useful POPs, which would mean a player will be forced to drop religious points to manually change their status.

Or you need to do the historical approach of "encouraging" people to move out to the colonies.

 

[kolpo]

I liked manual promotion of pops in small and medium states in Victoria 1. But in large states became it a hassle, especially in the late game. Ever played a civilized China in Victoria 1?

A solution could be some kind of demise system: A ruler only has the time to directly manage a limited number of territories. The rest is delegated to others, you can give governors rough guidelines but the actual management is done by local rulers outside your demise.