Why is Kaiserreich so much more immersive than the base game?

[TheMeInTeam]

This, mostly. Without going into the exact details of the size of the team (the number stated here isn't all that far off for Content Design), this is the biggest reason why mods are able to add much more flavor than the core game team is able to. Another reason is that, on top of having less manpower working on the lore in the first place, the implementation progress is also slower for the core team. We go through a long iteration process, and at every stage of implementation (and even before implementation is begun - research, design, draft, initial stage implementation, second stage (feedback) implementation, and further polish) the current state of a tree is scrutinized and receives feedback from at least half a dozen, and oftentimes multiple dozen, people. This takes extra time.

The extra hands probably help the mod project immensely. I don't play mods often, but if Kaiserreich really can add focuses without doing major bugs like this example in vanilla I can see why it'd be attractive:




This is far from the only focus related bug. It's not even the only serious issue with focus trees in China. This is also current patch, not WTT release state. When you make years-long plans in the game only to discover that said plans are tanked because the game lies, it's pretty frustrating. Sadly, this is not an isolated incident in HOI 4 right now.

 

[Iskulya]

lol, not this silliness again. We get it, TheMeInTeam, you don't like the game. You can step off your bully pulpit already and stop derailing the thread with your complaint about "bugs".

 

[grandad1982]

lol, not this silliness again. We get it, TheMeInTeam, you don't like the game. You can step off your bully pulpit already and stop derailing the thread with your complaint about "bugs".

Oh no someone doesn't like the poor ui and unclear way information and mechanics are presented and doesn't like bugs and oversights in the game either!

 

[TheMeInTeam]

lol, not this silliness again. We get it, TheMeInTeam, you don't like the game. You can step off your bully pulpit already and stop derailing the thread with your complaint about "bugs".

It's direct, relevant feedback to both the post I quoted and the thread in general. I don't know how good Kaiserreich is, but if it doesn't do that it's outperforming paid DLC.

Right now, the vanilla product doesn't work properly, even for newly implemented/focused on mechanics we paid extra to access. I don't want that to be the case. I actually want the game to work better. I would prefer to have fun when playing it and not have it fail in regards to mechanics the patches were explicitly stated to address/add.

 

[hkrommel]

It's direct, relevant feedback to both the post I quoted and the thread in general. I don't know how good Kaiserreich is, but if it doesn't do that it's outperforming paid DLC.

Right now, the vanilla product doesn't work properly, even for newly implemented/focused on mechanics we paid extra to access. I don't want that to be the case. I actually want the game to work better. I would prefer to have fun when playing it and not have it fail in regards to mechanics the patches were explicitly stated to address/add.

I don't disagree with you but your post had zero to do with Kaiserreich's immersiveness, it was explicitly about bugs.

The extra hands probably help the mod project immensely. I don't play mods often, but if Kaiserreich really can add focuses without doing major bugs like this example in vanilla I can see why it'd be attractive:

This is far from the only focus related bug. It's not even the only serious issue with focus trees in China. This is also current patch, not WTT release state. When you make years-long plans in the game only to discover that said plans are tanked because the game lies, it's pretty frustrating. Sadly, this is not an isolated incident in HOI 4 right now.

The first part is the only part in which you even mention the topic of the thread. Your first sentence (8 words) is potentially on topic. The rest is all about bugs (94 words). You mention Kaiserreich off hand but it's really lip service so you can then go on and complain about vanilla bugs. Honestly between your two posts it sounds like you've never played Kaiserreich, in which case you only came to this thread to conduct your usual routine.

Make your own thread.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

The first part is the only part in which you even mention the topic of the thread. Your first sentence (8 words) is potentially on topic. The rest is all about bugs (94 words). You mention Kaiserreich off hand but it's really lip service so you can then go on and complain about vanilla bugs.

There's a stated quality control process differential between vanilla and KR. Bugs are part of the immersiveness equation, and I strongly argue that the accuracy of the options in question contributes. Quantitively, how do the two compare? On a per NF basis, does KR lie more or vanilla?

Anyway I'm not buying a "polish" conclusion here. That's not a fair descriptor of HOI 4, which has straight up ignored polish in NFs (given documented issues survive multiple patches). KR and vanilla are also both fantasy, but one of them embraces this without pretense.

 

[hkrommel]

There's a stated quality control process differential between vanilla and KR. Bugs are part of the immersiveness equation, and I strongly argue that the accuracy of the options in question contributes. Quantitively, how do the two compare? On a per NF basis, does KR lie more or vanilla?

You're the one making the argument so it's your job to make this point. Stop derailing the thread to make your pet arguments when you've never even played the mod or put one ounce of thought into the question OP asks

 

[Lemont Elwood]

I haven't played Kaiserreich (don't own HOI4), but I appreciate reading its lore every now and then.

I think that it mostly comes down to that because Kaiserreich is an alternate history, the modders can load it up with storylines that are designed to be interesting, whereas real history isn't designed at all. So, Kaiserreich has a lot more stuff going on, but it can have that stuff going on because it's not constrained by real life.

 

[Holy.Death]

Some people (like yourself) want a challenge. If Germany fails because the French oppose the Rhineland, then the US is just sitting around until Japan makes a mistake. And even then, 100% of US effort against Japan is a bit like crushing a walnut with an industrial press.

That's because HoI has problems when trying to model logistics and power projection.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

You're the one making the argument so it's your job to make this point. Stop derailing the thread to make your pet arguments when you've never even played the mod or put one ounce of thought into the question OP asks

It's a pretty strong assertion claim someone hasn't put thought into something where they spent time. It's intellectually dishonest and does much more to derail the thread than anything I've posted.

Broadly speaking, if a mod is preferred to vanilla the reason has something to do with how the mod is different from vanilla. Immersion sources are different between people. Some come for the memes, others for extra variety, other still for content on their favorite country that has generic focuses in vanilla. I'm sure there are reasons I don't see too.

The OP asks this question:

Which leads me to why I made this topic. I'm curious why can't Vanilla be more like Kaiserreich?

The answer I first quoted in this thread was done as a refutation, but also a demonstration of the answer:

Due to resource constraints and/or some other reasons, the vanilla developer team can't even get the focuses it has already added to the game working properly, and that's not matter of opinion unless the game is intended to lie. Since the mod does not ask people to pay and does not have to hold itself to a higher or even equal standard to vanilla developers *and* they have more bodies on the project, they can do content that vanilla can't.

 

[qer]

Play the mod and jugde if it is more immersive or not than the vanilla game. The OP didn't ever mention UI issues or other of your recurring cited problems with the game, but derailing a thread to speak about you issues with the game is disrespectful for anyone interested in the thread.If you want to create a thread to speak about all the issues of the game , I will gladly join the conversion, but there is a place for every conversation.

 

[Iskulya]

It's a pretty strong assertion claim someone hasn't put thought into something where they spent time. It's intellectually dishonest and does much more to derail the thread than anything I've posted.

Broadly speaking, if a mod is preferred to vanilla the reason has something to do with how the mod is different from vanilla. Immersion sources are different between people. Some come for the memes, others for extra variety, other still for content on their favorite country that has generic focuses in vanilla. I'm sure there are reasons I don't see too.

The OP asks this question:



The answer I first quoted in this thread was done as a refutation, but also a demonstration of the answer:

Due to resource constraints and/or some other reasons, the vanilla developer team can't even get the focuses it has already added to the game working properly, and that's not matter of opinion unless the game is intended to lie. Since the mod does not ask people to pay and does not have to hold itself to a higher or even equal standard to vanilla developers *and* they have more bodies on the project, they can do content that vanilla can't.

Your "lie" meme is pretty hilarious tbh.

If minor nonissues break your enjoyment of the game with vanilla, then you'd hate Kaiserreich. Kaiserreich is pretty damn broken and buggy compared to vanilla(which is to say, it's moderately buggy and broken). If you think the game "lies" to you because getting the Nat China focus tree as Guanxi Clique after the united front has been formed doesn't allow you to form the united front, that is absolute peanuts compared to issues in kaiserreich.

For instance, in Kaiserreich if you choose to have a coup to overthrow the anarchists as Mexico, install a military junta, and then institute a kind of regimented democracy, at the first actual election event your only choices are the anarchist factions and gives you choices of people who were executed during the coup to get rid of the anarchists.

This stuff would be obvious if you had ever played Kasierreich, but you've admitted you haven't. You're just in this thread to bang on your bully pulpit about something entirely unrelated to the thread. You're here arguing on false pretenses and in bad faith, just like you always do.

 

[Sourlol]

It is a whole lot easier to produce quantity of content when your narrative is completely made up.

The Devs--despite those of us who get on them for Alt history--actually have a historical line they have to adhere to, Kaiserreich is pure fantasy land.

Beyond all that, I am quite content with Paradox's rate of adding to the lore/fluff of the game. Id prefer they use their resources to build out mechanics, overhaul and introduce systems, and provide more and more tools, methods, variables, etc. for modders.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

If minor nonissues break your enjoyment of the game with vanilla, then you'd hate Kaiserreich. Kaiserreich is pretty damn broken and buggy compared to vanilla(which is to say, it's moderately buggy and broken). If you think the game "lies" to you because getting the Nat China focus tree as Guanxi Clique after the united front has been formed doesn't allow you to form the united front, that is absolute peanuts compared to issues in kaiserreich.

I have zero respect for the game lying being treated as a "non-issue".

From this we can gather the following:

• The vanilla focuses attempt a higher standard than KR.
• They succeed, while still being unacceptably bad (runs ending due to dev mistakes rather than player isn't acceptable).

This isn't inconsistent with my point though. People don't have to pay for KR, and the quality expectation is lower. You have convinced me to avoid touching it beyond the admittedly very little I have.

In fact, you haven't refuted this at all:

Due to resource constraints and/or some other reasons, the vanilla developer team can't even get the focuses it has already added to the game working properly, and that's not matter of opinion unless the game is intended to lie. Since the mod does not ask people to pay and does not have to hold itself to a higher or even equal standard to vanilla developers *and* they have more bodies on the project, they can do content that vanilla can't.

The last sentence in particular. The devs don't do KR because they can't do KR in an even semi-quality fashion. They can't even do vanilla, so it is unreasonable to anticipate many times the work/difficulty to be accomplished adequately.

As this directly answers the thread question, repeatedly pretending it doesn't and attacking my alleged motivations rather than what is actually written is getting tiresome.

My answer to the OP is that "it isn't necessarily more immersive", because people derive immersion from different sources, but there's an obvious reason that Pdox can't do this amount of content.

 

[Dalwin]

What is your supposed "bug" in the focus tree anyway? Is it merely the issue where the result of a focus is no longer displayed after the focus is completed? That is the example you highlighted. It is annoying but is also very minor. It is certainly nothing to justify calling anyone a liar. It is also nothing that forces someone to "end a run". If there is more to your "bug" then your example does not express it clearly at all.

Furthermore it is completely true and obvious that you are here merely to hijack the thread and contribute little to it. Why not start a new thread in which you explain your case clearly. Those interested will certainly stop by and contribute. Personally, I find most end-of-the-world calamity posts about <insert trivial issue here> to be tedious at best.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

What is your supposed "bug" in the focus tree anyway? Is it merely the issue where the result of a focus is no longer displayed after the focus is completed? That is the example you highlighted. It is annoying but is also very minor. It is certainly nothing to justify calling anyone a liar. It is also nothing that forces someone to "end a run". If there is more to your "bug" then your example does not express it clearly at all.

When you take that focus, it tells you "can create factions", like every other focus that lets you create factions. It does not say "can create CUF and if CUF exists or ever existed then you can never create a faction again even though you were never in one". It doesn't even say "triggers CUF events".

It tells you that you can create factions. But you can't.

Furthermore it is completely true and obvious that you are here merely to hijack the thread and contribute little to it.

No, and the ad hominem bait is annoying.

Why not start a new thread in which you explain your case clearly.

What I had to say was directly related to a post made in this thread (which I quoted) and connects to part of the question presented in the opening post. There's no reason to make another thread in this context. It's not like I'm talking about naval invasions or something. I'm talking about the poor quality control of vanilla NF, and the implications that has on attempting to add more like KR, directly in context of a developer statement saying that they need more quality control than KR all while the game's baseline quality control is already poor.

The most off-topic stuff going on here is discussion about me. It might surprise those talking about "derailing the thread", but I am not the topic of the thread. What I am arguing is.

 

[hkrommel]

When you take that focus, it tells you "can create factions", like every other focus that lets you create factions. It does not say "can create CUF and if CUF exists or ever existed then you can never create a faction again even though you were never in one". It doesn't even say "triggers CUF events".

It tells you that you can create factions. But you can't.



No, and the ad hominem bait is annoying.



What I had to say was directly related to a post made in this thread (which I quoted) and connects to part of the question presented in the opening post. There's no reason to make another thread in this context. It's not like I'm talking about naval invasions or something. I'm talking about the poor quality control of vanilla NF, and the implications that has on attempting to add more like KR, directly in context of a developer statement saying that they need more quality control than KR all while the game's baseline quality control is already poor.

The most off-topic stuff going on here is discussion about me. It might surprise those talking about "derailing the thread", but I am not the topic of the thread. What I am arguing is.

Just stop. There's a bug forum for bugs, you're just derailing yet another thread with your annoying complaining and hilariously awful argumentation skills.

 

[a_sophist]

When I want immersion from a video game's story and world building, I play RPGs. I play HOI 4 for a WWII-themed strategic challenge. If one were to comb through my post history, they'd see I've made a lot of complaints and suggestions about how the game ought show more fidelity to history in terms of events, AI actions, and things the player has control over like production and unit design, but the game is generally oriented towards what I'd define as "immersive" so long as historical focuses are on and you don't try to min-max. I've tried KR a couple times but never got far and enjoyed reading the lore much more than actually playing.

 

[LiberiusX]

Let me expand on you here.

It's immersive because of the "pucker" factor. That feeling you get in your lower body when you are waiting to find out if your gamble or bluff is going to pay off. Just like your historical counterparts.

Let's take Munich as an example. How many German players even bother to have troops on the border when they start the Munich chain with historical on? Not many, I wager. So, instead of Munich being a high stakes gamble with an uncertain outcome, it's just a thing you do to get some IC and manpower. You might manipulate the situation to reduce WT or time it in a way that benefits your fellow Axis powers, but it's still just a freebie.

Our current MP game shows how the "pucker factor" comes into play. Finland caving over Karelia threw everything into chaos for the Soviets. One of the Soviet players was threatening to purge other human players in his faction over the issue (alcohol may have been a factor). But having the possibility in place made the ultimatum a pucker moment. And then Estonia decided not to cave, so we had another pucker moment we didn't expect.

Luckily, one of the Soviet co-ops was smart enough to put troops on Estonia's border just on the off chance they said no. (Alcohol may not have been a factor in that decision.)

I like some amount of pucker factor, but I also understand how some players don't want that pre-war pucker factor. Part of this is because there are NFs and national spirits that depend on the outcome of various things not under human control. MEFO is a big one. China caving and throwing the timing of Japanese stuff is another.

I can see it both ways. And it even varies for me. Sometimes I want that historical pucker factor. Other times, I just want to roll some panzers into other countries and crush them.

There may be more in Vanilla, but I only know of one event chain that has this “pucker” factor as you call it. It’s when A-H demands Transylvania from Romania. It leads down an event chain that can either go very good(free cb on Romania) or very bad(all the majors get a cb on A-H), with some middling potential results. It’s my absolute favorite event chain in HOI4.

Archangel has said it was a nightmare building it, so I doubt we’ll see many more like it.

 

[Dalwin]

There may be more in Vanilla, but I only know of one event chain that has this “pucker” factor as you call it. It’s when A-H demands Transylvania from Romania. It leads down an event chain that can either go very good(free cb on Romania) or very bad(all the majors get a cb on A-H), with some middling potential results. It’s my absolute favorite event chain in HOI4.

Archangel has said it was a nightmare building it, so I doubt we’ll see many more like it.

I imagine that situation is quite immersive and adds suspense and tension for the AH player, though of course in that scenario you have deviated greatly from the historical script so historical expectations from the AI should be out the window.