Why is Japan 100% fascism?

[Spelaren]

It is correct.
However, the new DLC for Bulgaria and Turkey is very complex.
Compared to that, I think Japan is oversimplified.
Possibility to update Japan again with DLC?
WtT Japan's NF is realy terrible.

Wait 8 years and pay 20 bucks.

 

[TamaJatu]

Wait 8 years and pay 20 bucks.

No problem. Japan has been fighting for 8 years from the 2nd Sino-Japanese War to the end of the war.

 

[Ketchup & friends]

I think when the concepts of sub ideologies are introduced in the vanilla game, these commented inconsistencies could be fixed

Do you think we'll ever get sub ideologies in vanilla apart from the mouseover localization?

My money's on no.

Sub-ideologies will be a DLC feature.

In 2025 or later.

 

[Lord Hoosier]

Because the political system mostly stands for which faction someone aligns with, NOT for their actual political spectrum. Japan aligns most closely with Germany and Italy, as those were technically Japan's allies in the war. That means they have to be fascist. Whether that should put them at 100% when neither Germany nor Italy get that high is another matter. The Soviet Union most definately wasn't at 100% support for communism either, yet that is what you get in the game.

The whole thing is obviously a simplification, and the names assigned are supposed to fit to the timeframe as a whole. You can see that in other areas as well, e.g. techs.

But Japan no longer joins the Axis on historical, it forms the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. So maybe they should be non aligned in game, as most other absolute monarchies are. I know they had a congress, but the Emperor had extreme personal authority.

 

[Paul.Ketcham]

But Japan no longer joins the Axis on historical, it forms the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. So maybe they should be non aligned in game, as most other absolute monarchies are. I know they had a congress, but the Emperor had extreme personal authority.

Japan isn't an absolute monarchy; the emperor is expected (though not necessarily required, since Japan has to be confusing) to stay out of everyday politics and leave the more "earthly" affairs to the government. Previously in Japanese history, you've had multiple versions of this (such as the division between ruling emperors and "cloistered" emperors, who ruled after they stepped down and handed all the ceremonial duties of emperor to their heir, as well as the divide of powers between Renaissance shoguns and emperors), and they're all fairly confusing.

1930s Japan basically had its government overthrown despite the emperor's opposition, since he wasn't supposed to openly involve himself; military officers enthralled by Erich Ludendorff's ideas of total mobilization for war and the need for resource self-sufficiency invaded Manchuria without any government orders or approval, asssassinating the premier responsible for signing the London Naval Treaty (which the emperor backed), and ultimately the failed Kodoha coup in February 1936 (which still resulted in the government stepping down to avoid further violence, and the establishment of a military government).

While the emperor still possessed the authority when necessary to determine policy (such as Japan's eventual surrender), the unwillingness to act on that power basically renders it irrelevant.

 

[TamaJatu]

Japan isn't an absolute monarchy; the emperor is expected (though not necessarily required, since Japan has to be confusing) to stay out of everyday politics and leave the more "earthly" affairs to the government. Previously in Japanese history, you've had multiple versions of this (such as the division between ruling emperors and "cloistered" emperors, who ruled after they stepped down and handed all the ceremonial duties of emperor to their heir, as well as the divide of powers between Renaissance shoguns and emperors), and they're all fairly confusing.

1930s Japan basically had its government overthrown despite the emperor's opposition, since he wasn't supposed to openly involve himself; military officers enthralled by Erich Ludendorff's ideas of total mobilization for war and the need for resource self-sufficiency invaded Manchuria without any government orders or approval, asssassinating the premier responsible for signing the London Naval Treaty (which the emperor backed), and ultimately the failed Kodoha coup in February 1936 (which still resulted in the government stepping down to avoid further violence, and the establishment of a military government).

While the emperor still possessed the authority when necessary to determine policy (such as Japan's eventual surrender), the unwillingness to act on that power basically renders it irrelevant.

The difficulty with Japanese politics is that there was no clear dictator like Hitler or Mussolini.
Fumimaro Konoe became prime minister because he had no other suitable person and was popular with the people, but he resigned because he could not control the army led by Hideki Tojo.
Hideki Tojo also resigned, taking responsibility for the fall of Saipan.
Hirohito did not manage the war either.
Hirohito's role is to approve proposals from the military and government.
As an example, in Formosa Air Battle, the military reported wrong results to Hirohito and did not correct it even after it turned out to be an overestimate.
In April 1945, the peace sect Kantaro Suzuki became prime minister, but the Army threatened with a coup d'etat and continued the war until the Soviet Union invaded Manchuria.

- Daihon'ei announcement "Formosa Air Battle" and Prime Minister Kuniaki Koiso

 

[Tomray94]

Sub-ideologies will be a DLC feature.

In 2025 or later.

I honestly hope that isn't the case. This game is almost 5 years old, has the least amount of content, is the least complete and needs the most reworks and overhauls. In 2025 it will be a 9 year old game. Crusader Kings II was fully completed in 7 years, EU IV is coming close to completion within 7-8 years of development. HOI4's atrociously slow pace of development is disgraceful.

Stellaris was literally released one month earlier and it is 10 times better in terms of overlapping systems, mechanics, more and better content, greater DLC and many other areas.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

You have 3 Political Factions in the Game:

a) Democratic = about 70 to 75 % of the World

b) Communist = about 15 to 20 % of the World

c) Fashist = about 5 to 10 % of the World

That´s the Facts, which can be done. And if a Country get 100 % Fashisht like Japan it dosen´t matter. You need an Ballance of the 3 Political Factions in the Game and we have them. Otherwise it will be very boring.

And with Agents, Politcs, Focuses etc. you can influence the Nations realy fast. Japan has an other Nationalist-Thinking then Germany, Italy or the South-American-Countrys and dosen´t show it in Public like the other 2 Nationalist-Nations did it.

The Japanise Nation masked it much better and the Communist / Democratic Nations thought Japan is a Democratic Nation too. The real Japan was camouflaged with democratic showings like the German Demorcatic Republic (DDR) or the Russian Federation today.

 

[Xerberous]

So much room for improvement and such a slow rate of DLC releases.

 

[TamaJatu]

I have a newspaper for the 1936 general election and a manifesto for the Rikken Seiyukai.

Within the red line, it states that fascism has gained growing support due to political corruption.
And it is stated that the right and left wings are against fascism.

- (my) Modern Japanese translation

ファシズムに対抗
右翼・左翼の支持
現実主義が大きく支持される

今回の総選挙における無産党の想定外の進出は粛清選挙の一大収穫として政界財界の注目の的となっているが、原因は最近の労働戦線統一問題に見られるファシズムの支持拡大に対して左翼・右翼の労働戦線が協力して社会大衆党を支持したこと、
また無産党の掲げる最近のスローガンが革命的なものから現実的なものへと変化し労働者、農民以外に広く中小企業、サラリーマンなどに呼びかけ、この支持層から多数の票を獲得したことなどが挙げられる。

"Against fascism
Right / left wing support
Realism is greatly supported

The unexpected advance of the Japan Proletarian Party in this general election has attracted the attention of the political and business circles as a major harvest of the quiet election *1 , but the cause is the growing support for fascism seen in the recent labor front unification problem. The cooperation of the left wing and right wing labor fronts to support the Social Mass Party,
In addition, the recent slogan of the Japan Proletarian Party has changed from revolutionary to realistic, calling on small and medium-sized enterprises, office workers, etc. in addition to workers and farmers, and getting a large number of votes from this supporter. "

*1 粛清選挙 Opposition to corruption and bribery elections

The Japan Proletarian Party and the Social Mass Party were on the anti-fascist front, but during the 2nd Sino-Japanese War, the Japan Proletarian Party started anti-war campaign, the Social Mass Party supports military, and anti-fascist front collapsed.

 

[LAF1994]

The HoI4 ideology system isn't really a good representation of Japan's internal politics in this era. For one thing, the game assumes that Fascist and Communist governments are autocratic dictatorships, which Japan wasn't- between the start of 1936 and the end of the war, Japan changed Prime Ministers 11 times. The government was less driven by ideology than by the complicated relationships between the government, Army, Navy, and Zaibatsus.

 

[DerGrößteRitter]

You have 3 Political Factions in the Game:

a) Democratic = about 70 to 75 % of the World

b) Communist = about 15 to 20 % of the World

c) Fashist = about 5 to 10 % of the World

That´s the Facts, which can be done. And if a Country get 100 % Fashisht like Japan it dosen´t matter. You need an Ballance of the 3 Political Factions in the Game and we have them. Otherwise it will be very boring.

And with Agents, Politcs, Focuses etc. you can influence the Nations realy fast. Japan has an other Nationalist-Thinking then Germany, Italy or the South-American-Countrys and dosen´t show it in Public like the other 2 Nationalist-Nations did it.

The Japanise Nation masked it much better and the Communist / Democratic Nations thought Japan is a Democratic Nation too. The real Japan was camouflaged with democratic showings like the German Demorcatic Republic (DDR) or the Russian Federation today.

Sorry, but I must downvote for those spelling mistakes.

 

[DerGrößteRitter]

Honestly, I must agree. Japan is in need of a serious rework regarding certain historical details and their focus tree.

 

[Hoi Neuling]

If you don´t like it then play a Mod.

 

[TamaJatu]

If you don´t like it then play a Mod.

ok, but next dlc will canceled.
there is no new italy and soviet Event/NF.
because MOD IS CAN DO IT ALL.

You shouldn't rely on mods for improvements.
Like a nuclear apocalypse game.

 

[Cymsdale]

I think when the concepts of sub ideologies are introduced in the vanilla game, these commented inconsistencies could be fixed

Any hope at all for any kind of sophisticated politics/ideology system should be thrown away while National Focus exists as a thing. And since all the DLCs released are 95% based on NFs, don't expect them to go anywhere until HOI5.

 

[Arthrodira]

I'm hardly an expert, but I always assumed it to mean that the Emperor is so incredibly respected and revered that there really isn't room for division in Japanese political society. Basically, the Emperor "leaned" "fascist" starting before 1939, so fascists have 100% popularity. The theory of party popularity = foreign alignment has made sense to me, but ultimately I disagree with it.

Don't get hung up on it - The idea that only 60% of Germany was onboard with Nazism in 1936 and no one was in favor of non-aligned is ridiculous, too.

Yes this is it, in effect.

I think there may be a widespread misconception about how much political power the emperor could wield. He basically endorsed whatever faction was the de facto winner and currently in control. The final step of the winning faction is always to get the "endorsement" of the emperor in order to legitimatize their rule. The shogunate was essentially the most powerful warlord who had control of Kyoto at the same time. The military faction that took control pre-WW2 was basically taking the role of the old shogunate. The emperor was not in the position to refuse to cooperate because it would have made no difference and would have endangered the existence of the imperial house. It would've been too risky to back one faction over another in case the favored one lost.

It wasn't the emperor who overthrew the Tokugawa shogunate. It was the rival factions who overthrew shogunate in the name of the emperor but the emperor himself did none of the work and so had no influence over the new ruling party. He only had to acknowledge their de facto victory.

Japanese politics is probably too "weird" to represent accurately in the game, so it's best to just abstract it. We're only looking at a 13 year period of a war game after all.

Japan isn't an absolute monarchy; the emperor is expected (though not necessarily required, since Japan has to be confusing) to stay out of everyday politics and leave the more "earthly" affairs to the government. Previously in Japanese history, you've had multiple versions of this (such as the division between ruling emperors and "cloistered" emperors, who ruled after they stepped down and handed all the ceremonial duties of emperor to their heir, as well as the divide of powers between Renaissance shoguns and emperors), and they're all fairly confusing.

1930s Japan basically had its government overthrown despite the emperor's opposition, since he wasn't supposed to openly involve himself; military officers enthralled by Erich Ludendorff's ideas of total mobilization for war and the need for resource self-sufficiency invaded Manchuria without any government orders or approval, asssassinating the premier responsible for signing the London Naval Treaty (which the emperor backed), and ultimately the failed Kodoha coup in February 1936 (which still resulted in the government stepping down to avoid further violence, and the establishment of a military government).

While the emperor still possessed the authority when necessary to determine policy (such as Japan's eventual surrender), the unwillingness to act on that power basically renders it irrelevant.

This all points to that other obnoxious problem with Japan - that Hirohito is still listed as the in game leader. This strikes me as a bigger issue than the inconsistent use of "fascism." I thought for sure that at least this would be fixed when they reworked the country, but no. Hirohito led Japan as much as George VI led the UK - in name only. It's absolutely ridiculous. And it's a double disservice to society - it perpetuates "orientalist" stereotypes of perceived Asian backwardness and blind autocracy (ironic considering the Germans and Italians were the blind fascists...) while simultaneously absolving the actual government of its responsibility for causing the wars. We don't blame Victor Emmanuel III for invading Greece, we blame Mussolini. At release you could argue that they didn't have a better way to represent the Japanese government, can't do that anymore. Considering all the military junta's spread across the new focus trees, Japan is clearly a case of willful neglect. The only thing I can think of is either they don't care that it's a problem or they are keeping Hirohito because you can kind of rationalize him as a fascist leader and they want to keep using that "fascist" oversimplification (it's much harder to argue the Prime Ministers were fascists).

I don't like the added complexity came by recent dlc(s). I used to play Turkey and to some extent greece but not anymore thanks making them complex. This game's main focus is about War (as said many times by devs). At least major nations should remain less complex (if not simple) and be as accessable as possible. Lets have these types of complex management to remian only for minor nations

I don't understand this sentiment in the slightest - why on Earth should minor's have a BETTER representation of internal politics than the majors. Turn off the DLC if you don't like the new features.

 

[Áurum]

I'm still wondering whether the political party % represents the cabinet itself, the people's proportional vote, representational vote or something else entirely...

In democracies it tends to be party popularity, in dictatorships it tends to be power share.

Anyway, Japan is not only oversimplified, it's also wrong. The fascist party should be the Kodoha faction, and the historical path should be non-aligned (after it gets renamed to authoritarian once and for all), as in Kaiserreich.

 

[Paul.Ketcham]

In democracies it tends to be party popularity, in dictatorships it tends to be power share.

Anyway, Japan is not only oversimplified, it's also wrong. The fascist party should be the Kodoha faction, and the historical path should be non-aligned (after it gets renamed to authoritarian once and for all), as in Kaiserreich.

The historic government still hits every important mark for fascism, and given that ideology determines your political alignment, Japan was far more aligned towards other fascists rather than standing as their own neutral power bloc with not particular direction. Authoritarian nonaligned refers rather to nations like Greece and Portugal, which are content to sit around doing nothing being happily-ignored, and are freely-happy to ally with democratic powers if its in their defensive interests.

Remember that, above all else, government type determines your limitations (lend lease, war justification, sending volunteers, who you can guarantee or ally with, etc). That's where nonaligned really doesn't make sense for historic Japan.

 

[kimidf]

Any hope at all for any kind of sophisticated politics/ideology system should be thrown away while National Focus exists as a thing. And since all the DLCs released are 95% based on NFs, don't expect them to go anywhere until HOI5.

We remember the developers themselves have put their own roadmap that they want to insert a subideology system for this game and I created the last country pack they inserted a small faction mechanic for the countries of that product that I think is the first step towards a generalization of this idea for later on from that system factions to convert it to a certain rework of the internal politics of the countries


I perfectly believe there may be later a certain revision of the Japanese tree to insert some approaches and many decisions in that internal sense and the power struggle between different factions within the Japanese country. It is clear in some countries like this the concept of duality in power is necessary because it is inconceivable that a figure as vital in the spheres of power as General Tojo or many other cases such as the Antonescu case in Romania has no place in the game set in World War II due to current system of extreme simplification of politics in the game