why is italy so weak

[UP-Cedric]

Perhaps the Italian tech was totally outdated compared to the Allied and their Divisions were composed from few and weak units.
As far as I understood it a human player could get an italian division on par with every other nation if he has the tech and the xp to edit it.

 

[Loke]

HoiIV nerfs Italian divisions. They are binary instead of triangular. That just makes an Italian division simply no match for a player controlled division. The Italian divisions in HoiIV consist of 6 battalions, compared to the 9 battalions of the normal allied division. This departs significantly from history. In 1936, at game start, an Italian division consisted of 9 battalions of infantry, like other nation's triangular divisions. By 1940 they went binary, but they added a CCNN legion of 2 battalions. So, historically, they should have 8, not 6 battalions.

On top of that you add support companies to the allied divisions, better infantry weapons technology, and better doctrines, and you get a rout.

100% agree.

 

[Rostan]

yea so in the last www italian troops got totally destroyed instantly vs the british and american, they didnt stand a chance against any fight.

Finally some historical realism.

 

[Lamahorse]

Wasn't the Italian problem, incompetence in command? Italian divisions under Rommel in North Africa fought extremely well.

The Italian Army had a lot of issues going into WWII. They were undersupplied with inferior weaponry and led abysmally. The individual soldiers and divisions performed quite well under German command.

Of course a player will never have these problems in HoI4, because we are all Sun Tsu, von Manstein and Zhukov's love children.

 

[Sweed Raver]

Daniel also controlled Gibraltar, so the allies shouldn't even have been able to enter the mediterranean.

Unless they build their transport ships in Africa and landed their troops in Marocko.

 

[Beagá]

HoiIV nerfs Italian divisions. They are binary instead of triangular. That just makes an Italian division simply no match for a player controlled division. The Italian divisions in HoiIV consist of 6 battalions, compared to the 9 battalions of the normal allied division. This departs significantly from history. In 1936, at game start, an Italian division consisted of 9 battalions of infantry, like other nation's triangular divisions. By 1940 they went binary, but they added a CCNN legion of 2 battalions. So, historically, they should have 8, not 6 battalions.

On top of that you add support companies to the allied divisions, better infantry weapons technology, and better doctrines, and you get a rout.

I understand your POV, but balance in the mediterranean starts in 1939, not when US is in the war and soviets are fighting.

What if BEF wasn´t sent? What if Germany didn´t do Battle of Britain? What if BEF holds, but then Italy declares war on France?

I´m just saying it´s a bit unfair to discuss why Italy should win... in a scenario it should lose. There are simply more situations that could happen. Before 1942. And those are more worth talking about. It´s simply pointless talking about Italy´s balance when you don´t know how UK, Germany and France will be balanced.

 

[tommylotto]

Not sure what you are saying. There are plenty of factors that should give UK divisions an edge over Italian divisions, but a 9 to 6 advantage in the number of infantry battalions is not one of them. By 1940, it should be 9 to 8, but as I mentioned the UK divisions should also have more support, better equipment, and better doctrine.

Edit: Not to mention training and leadership.

 

[Beagá]

Should they? Why? Why Italy can´t be better equipped in 1940 than them if Germany helps earlier?

This isn´t about history. It´s about making a game that works . If countries should do what they historical counteparts did just remove research and production and give everyone predetermined units.

Is that how it should work?

 

[tommylotto]

Well sure, we as players, either as Italy or to a lesser extent Germany, should be able to intervene and make the Italian divisions better. However, without player intervention, Italian divisions should be made weaker, if at all, through means other than merely reducing battalion count by 33%. That's my only point.

 

[Sharp163]

I don't think you need to worry about what you saw.

The AI in the www is to put it bluntly pathetic, confirmed by podcat.

Remember what we are watching is like a patch work version of the alpha constantly being glued and bandaided where nessesary to keep it playable so we can watch.

Think about how much it's effecting the players, certain theaters aren't receiving supply until reload, production lines being wiped, units not following orders. A human mind can go through and work the problem out the AI does not have this ability.

I wouldn't be surprised if it's not bothering with certain places due to the supply bug and it doesn't know what to do with production or unit composition just due to parts of the game build not function properly.

Short summary: the AI is horrible in this build it doesn't have the tools it needs. Ignore it's performance for now it'll be significantly better on release. Skynet

... I thought the game was close to being finished....

 

[Centerbe]

The Italian troops were controlled by Daniel

ahhh now is clear why divisions was parked on mountains.... they was not AI controlled

 

[tom_jones]

Well sure, we as players, either as Italy or to a lesser extent Germany, should be able to intervene and make the Italian divisions better. However, without player intervention, Italian divisions should be made weaker, if at all, through means other than merely reducing battalion count by 33%. That's my only point.

Alternative (and simpler/more useful) approach would be to make sure AI has the same ability to tweak the unit templates, and that it takes advantage of it. The game is going to be pretty boring otherwise, if the player's units with all kinds of support units etc will only ever face some generic infantry and occasional tank.

 

[Centerbe]

HoiIV nerfs Italian divisions. They are binary instead of triangular. That just makes an Italian division simply no match for a player controlled division. The Italian divisions in HoiIV consist of 6 battalions, compared to the 9 battalions of the normal allied division. This departs significantly from history. In 1936, at game start, an Italian division consisted of 9 battalions of infantry, like other nation's triangular divisions. By 1940 they went binary, but they added a CCNN legion of 2 battalions. So, historically, they should have 8, not 6 battalions.

On top of that you add support companies to the allied divisions, better infantry weapons technology, and better doctrines, and you get a rout.

Right, also if Pariani planned the binary divisions just in 1939.... and in 1940 only part of the divisions adopted the new binary reform.
The idea was increase number of divisions from 30 triangular to 45 binary (in peace time), with and addition of 2 CCNN battalions or 1 of artillery.
Usually in HOI game start with the correct division number (around 30) but just binary in 1936, than at least 33% less than the real force.

 

[Mannstien]

Italy will be a deviant as she always is I think once the game is polished and ready to release the AI has some more horsepower and your playing as Germany and giving her some tanks she'll be good. I personally cannot wait to get my hands on Italy, was always my favorite and the first major I played in HOI3.

 

[Beagá]

Well sure, we as players, either as Italy or to a lesser extent Germany, should be able to intervene and make the Italian divisions better. However, without player intervention, Italian divisions should be made weaker, if at all, through means other than merely reducing battalion count by 33%. That's my only point.

I know your POV, you know a lot about the story of that theather, and I appreciate it.

It´s just that it´s tricky to make it predictable when the player is meant to not be. This is vastly different from the likes of, say, XCOM 2, which while a good game, has extremely limited replay value because it is so linear.

If I´m player UK and I stall Germany for 2 months in France should AI Italy declare war? Should it build ships, troops or aircraft before? When it should build planes? When it should put troops in french front? Should it put troops on the border of Africa with UK... AND France? Should it put troops in Ethiopia?

Tough questions...

 

[WeissRaben]

If I´m player UK and I stall Germany for 2 months in France should AI Italy declare war?

This isn't a tough question: no. Extended version, hell no. Italy declared war specifically because France had collapsed: the army was in no condition to actually fight, and Mussolini knew it. In game terms, the AI should be convinced by a huge swing in warscore (or its equivalent, can't remember now), but otherwise be reasonably isolationist.

 

[Centerbe]

well, true....
but do not seem in the national focus tree this is represented
at begin of 1936 opposition to the annexation of austria was still in force

 

[ashbery76]

yea so in the last www italian troops got totally destroyed instantly vs the british and american, they didnt stand a chance against any fight. does that mean theres no point in playing italy if you're just gonna lose every fight?

Agreed.They should not fight at all but surrender.

 

[mikal1991]

Of course a player will never have these problems in HoI4, because we are all Sun Tsu, von Manstein and Zhukov's love children.

We are indeed

 

[Centerbe]

Because the Italians are specifically designed to be only good at switching sides. ;p

Seriously though: probably because the Italian AI is A: still in development and B: chose the wrong techs

i dont think italy have his own specific AI, every non playable country use the game AI in the same way...
Romanian army was the demonstration AI was totally broken, if AI didnt work there, was the same for every game controlled nations. Italy capitulated without any battle, divisions was paralized, frozen.