yea so in the last www italian troops got totally destroyed instantly vs the british and american, they didnt stand a chance against any fight. does that mean theres no point in playing italy if you're just gonna lose every fight?
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why is italy so weak
- Thread starter max0002
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I don't think you need to worry about what you saw.
The AI in the www is to put it bluntly pathetic, confirmed by podcat.
Remember what we are watching is like a patch work version of the alpha constantly being glued and bandaided where nessesary to keep it playable so we can watch.
Think about how much it's effecting the players, certain theaters aren't receiving supply until reload, production lines being wiped, units not following orders. A human mind can go through and work the problem out the AI does not have this ability.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's not bothering with certain places due to the supply bug and it doesn't know what to do with production or unit composition just due to parts of the game build not function properly.
Short summary: the AI is horrible in this build it doesn't have the tools it needs. Ignore it's performance for now it'll be significantly better on release. Skynet
The AI in the www is to put it bluntly pathetic, confirmed by podcat.
Remember what we are watching is like a patch work version of the alpha constantly being glued and bandaided where nessesary to keep it playable so we can watch.
Think about how much it's effecting the players, certain theaters aren't receiving supply until reload, production lines being wiped, units not following orders. A human mind can go through and work the problem out the AI does not have this ability.
I wouldn't be surprised if it's not bothering with certain places due to the supply bug and it doesn't know what to do with production or unit composition just due to parts of the game build not function properly.
Short summary: the AI is horrible in this build it doesn't have the tools it needs. Ignore it's performance for now it'll be significantly better on release. Skynet
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The Italian troops were controlled by Daniel (I think the AI handed over control) and he was using some 20 of them to fight some 40 US and British divisions. He was fighting in multiple theatres and got outmaneuvered and outmicro'd in the Italian one. At the end, the Italian army got encircled and cut off from supply and were probably at extremely low morale when they got engaged and wiped out.
The Italian AI probably also was making stupid research and political idea choices. Daniel said that the Italian soldiers were really weak, which was why he wasn't even bothering to try and save them.
The Italian AI probably also was making stupid research and political idea choices. Daniel said that the Italian soldiers were really weak, which was why he wasn't even bothering to try and save them.
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We've seen before in the WWWs where the current state of balance/AI/game mechanics created a sudden turn of events that may seem unrealistic. That being said, Italy falling so quickly was not that surprising considering Daniel's meager expeditionary force was halved by an encirclement. In history Italy's troops had terrible morale and subpar leadership during WWII (in most instances). A human-controlled Germany allied to an AI-controlled Italy would want to match AT LEAST 50% of what the Allies are sending to Italy.
Now, what's nice about playing Italy in the HoI games is that you're blessed with hindsight and impartiality, two of Mussolini's greatest weaknesses (foresight, in his case). Italy is awesome because they have a long road to the top (if they want to rock'n'roll), and an experienced HoI player has a decent challenge in crafting a perfect Mare Nostrum. Italy is also an excellent country to learn the game on, and trust me you usually will do a little bit better that how Italy did in real life.
Now, what's nice about playing Italy in the HoI games is that you're blessed with hindsight and impartiality, two of Mussolini's greatest weaknesses (foresight, in his case). Italy is awesome because they have a long road to the top (if they want to rock'n'roll), and an experienced HoI player has a decent challenge in crafting a perfect Mare Nostrum. Italy is also an excellent country to learn the game on, and trust me you usually will do a little bit better that how Italy did in real life.
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Daniel also controlled Gibraltar, so the allies shouldn't even have been able to enter the mediterranean.
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Also the fact that strait blocking isn't working in the save file atm and would require a new game. What dan did has germany is the best way to support an ai controlled italy, from which i mean he secured the spanish into the axis thus taking & blocking the straits of gibraltar, while also pushing up to the Suez and effectively blocking the straits there, had the strait blocking been working, the mediterranean would have been secured, and invasions far more predicatable, Dans push into india would have allowed him to kill alot of the british manpower production, and from there he could build a navy, or basically sit by and fend of invasions until the game end date resulting in a win.
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HoiIV nerfs Italian divisions. They are binary instead of triangular. That just makes an Italian division simply no match for a player controlled division. The Italian divisions in HoiIV consist of 6 battalions, compared to the 9 battalions of the normal allied division. This departs significantly from history. In 1936, at game start, an Italian division consisted of 9 battalions of infantry, like other nation's triangular divisions. By 1940 they went binary, but they added a CCNN legion of 2 battalions. So, historically, they should have 8, not 6 battalions.
On top of that you add support companies to the allied divisions, better infantry weapons technology, and better doctrines, and you get a rout.
On top of that you add support companies to the allied divisions, better infantry weapons technology, and better doctrines, and you get a rout.
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Straits are a bit of red herring -- if push came to shove the Allies could always land in any of their ports on African coast, trek north and then use their ships already present in the Mediterranean for the last leg of the trip.
would that give the italians a bit of an advantage if pushing east? i know if playing has china in hoi3, or pushing east with say italy or fighting in oman, yemen for the oil, sometimes you felt better off with one battalion less in a division, allowed supplies to keep up well, and not this stop, start, situation with whole tank divisions waiting for supplies due to bottlenecks, but i'm not sure about hoi4 logisitics.
it's a pity you can't tell AI countries within your faction to concentrate on certain strengths, that being the navy for italy, i know in hoi3 you could designate attack objectives for your allies? would be neat has a faction leader if you could influence how another country focuses itself, since that is generally what happens in a multiplayer game. Players will plan before hand what they are going to specialise in and support each other appropriately, that would be a great way to imrpove the ai somewhat, so they aren't a burden.
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The Italian division template (smaller with more pack artillery and less medium artillery) might make sense fighting in Ethiopia, or the Alps, or the Balkans, but makes less sense when fighting against powerful British or American divisions with oodles of infantry battalions, artillery and other support.
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Italy survived till 1943, that is Historical, so we need not complain too much about it.
The Greek AI on the other hand has been the best AI of the game and the Russian AI has been the worst.
HOI4 nerfs Italy (and rightly so) because you cannot "FORCE" players to commit the blunders of Mussolini and his useless Generals/Admirals-
Keeping a huge army in East Africa (any half decent player withdraws the whole army except 1-2 garrisons)
Attacking the British before being ready
Trying to attack the French over the Alps and bleeding profusely
and so on and so forth..
The Greek AI on the other hand has been the best AI of the game and the Russian AI has been the worst.
HOI4 nerfs Italy (and rightly so) because you cannot "FORCE" players to commit the blunders of Mussolini and his useless Generals/Admirals-
Keeping a huge army in East Africa (any half decent player withdraws the whole army except 1-2 garrisons)
Attacking the British before being ready
Trying to attack the French over the Alps and bleeding profusely
and so on and so forth..
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Where we're at in the stream, Johan still controls the western side of the Suez canal running through Egypt, which is the important side I believe. There is another thread with a lot of back and forth debating over the current state of strait blocking, which I don't really have the time to go digging for right now, but the way things seem to work right now is straits are controlled by one particular province - In the case of the Gibraltar straits, if the Axis control the province of Gibraltar then the Allies can't sail through that strait. In terms of the Suez I'm pretty certain it's the Cairo side that controls passage there, the ownership of which belongs to Johan. This is the reason that the Allies can still move their ships into the Mediterranean, and why Daniel was making an effort to take it.
I don't really have much of an issue with this mechanic but there seem to be many people complaining over how unrealistic it is, which I can understand to some degree. But at any rate, the TLDR; of this is that the UK and US are not breaking the game by being able to launch naval invasions in the Mediterranean.
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strait blocking doesnt work in the current built they are playing. Thats why Johan was able to land troops in Sweden and in an early episode where the French navy literaly took the kiel channel while at war.
Controlling gibraltar and the suez channel will lock your enemies out of the mediterranean sea, while controlling denmark will block out your enemies from the baltic sea once it is working.
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ahhhh ok, hmmm, see in hoi3, i thought you only needed to control one side atleast? in order for shipping to pass, both sides of the strait needs to be secure i thought? but if what your saying is roughly true, then so longs i know what i have to do to secure the straits, thats fine.
yeah that has always been my impression, even since hoi3
oh yeah i agree, didn't know they were capped off thou, was just trying to find reasoning for why it must be so, and generally such smaller ad hoc divisons were easier to supply. I know Johan was suffering supply problems in egypt, and had to build up infrastructue to support his divisions, i would atleast hope that the italians could take advantage of such a situation early on.
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Pretty sure it is broken as they have said before that the blocking mechanic was bugged. And that wouldn't make sense regardless if you had to control a certain side of a strait to get the block
Could be that the Italian AI didn't spend its military experience to reform its infantry divisions into triangular ones.
It's also possible they've tied a special "Italian army is rubbish" modifier to Mussolini, I think they did that in one of the previous HoI games.
It's also possible they've tied a special "Italian army is rubbish" modifier to Mussolini, I think they did that in one of the previous HoI games.
I'm not certain this is the case keep in mind, I'm just going off of what I've been able to surmise.
Thinking back I do remember now the invasion in Stockholm that was indeed the result of broken strait blocking, and that that may well be the case for the other straits. However, I think given the heated discussion in this thread (https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/index.php?threads/invasions-inside-strait-enclosures-in-latest-ww2-wednesday.907903/), that there are some weird rules in place regarding holding straits from one side such as Gibraltar entirely blocking the Gibraltar strait but honestly I don't know enough on the topic to have a lot of valuable input.
The mechanic of strait blocking by occupying one province has been there since at least HoI2, if not HoI1.
This has always been a useful abstractiom for me. After all you need only occupy one side to erect coastal batteries that can trash any incoming ships.
This has always been a useful abstractiom for me. After all you need only occupy one side to erect coastal batteries that can trash any incoming ships.
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Because the Italians are specifically designed to be only good at switching sides. ;p
Seriously though: probably because the Italian AI is A: still in development and B: chose the wrong techs
Seriously though: probably because the Italian AI is A: still in development and B: chose the wrong techs
it's not just the Italian infantry that is nerfed... tommy is right in that the binary div fiasco was already a fixed problem BEFORE Italy ever entered the war
but HOI4 also nerfs the Italian navy... Italy starts with fewer BBs then they did in real life, due to the rebuilding program, and devs have never mentioned what they planned to do about it, if anything....
also, to the above poster that said that garrisoning the AOI is a mistake, I beg to differ... Italian military planners (aka musso himself) had no idea that the tenth army was going to be destroyed so quickly... in real life, the AOI held out for almost a 1.5 years and absorbed many resources the brits would have have allocated elsewhere against Italy....in effect with the tenth army intact, and forces in AOI, Italy could have had eqypt and sudan in a vice grip..
but HOI4 also nerfs the Italian navy... Italy starts with fewer BBs then they did in real life, due to the rebuilding program, and devs have never mentioned what they planned to do about it, if anything....
also, to the above poster that said that garrisoning the AOI is a mistake, I beg to differ... Italian military planners (aka musso himself) had no idea that the tenth army was going to be destroyed so quickly... in real life, the AOI held out for almost a 1.5 years and absorbed many resources the brits would have have allocated elsewhere against Italy....in effect with the tenth army intact, and forces in AOI, Italy could have had eqypt and sudan in a vice grip..
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