Why is it that many people are angry right before the release of a new DLC?

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RichardOlcese

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And paradox gives away the equivalent of DLC with free patches like for example free unit sprites. It's still a business model for CDPR and Paradox but I'd say base EU4 has become a much more fun game than when it was released.
I agree. I am very grateful because of the magnificent Manchu patch, which was free. And my little and wise heart tells me there will also be an awesome free Scandinavia patch. The region deserves it. We deserve it. Paradox deserves it.
 

WorldWarIV

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Personally I was angry and disappointed that the game went from near masterpiece to money printing machine. I used to express my concerns but stopped doing so when I realized that Paradox decisions were only motivated by profit. It's okay, that's what most game companies do anyway, it was just disappointing when the illusion that Paradox was different was shattered. After Golden Century, Emperor, Don't listen to the peasant rabble, Imperator and VTMB2 (which is now quite a list of fiascoes), I just don't care anymore and stopped buying Paradox products, whereas 5 years ago I was buying everything I could get my hands on.
 
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I didnt even notice that was released.
So as i expected they could not get it to work.
Guess my original disk of the first game is going to be worth a fortune in a few decades.

It wasn't even released. They have fired the developer and now the game seems to be in permanent limbo. The whole thing was handled so poorly.
 
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Knock it off with the negative representation of people that have different opinions other than your own.

Play nice or don't play
 
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Johan has always been good at being transparent, even if what he has to say won't make people happy. He is also relatively active in this forum (pretty much the only dev on the team that is) which is great and instantly got people's hope high for Emperor. And even after Emperor's release we got a lot of Dev activity in the form of questionnaires, threads asking for feedback about bugs, Johan doing a public announcement when they messed up the new multiplayer release, etc.

I just find it unfortunate that there isn't more of this type of dev-player interaction here in the forum.

The unfortunate part is that some of the devs have the idea that they are very active on the forum. But they aren't. I read a dev some time ago on the CK3 sub, who said that "We do read, but we don't want to engage in unproductive criticism." Prior to that, they had made a thread where they showcased the vassal contract of ck3 which was gonna be completely bare bones. They had a ton of criticism, which they completely ignored until people began to call them out on it - it was actually pretty cringy as about half of the thread was criticism while the rest was various easily answered questions. They only answered the questions.

What I'm trying to say is that it's easy to not engage criticism if you deem all criticism to be nonconstructive.

Yet I also find it important to realize that many of the players here are very experienced. They don't criticize the game because they think its fun, they criticize it because they find that something is wrong or an aspect that is poorly implemented / or perhaps they don't like the way things are going. The point is that a lot of the criticism is warranted.

Paradox games has literally turned into massive jigsaw puzzles where if you want to have a good experience, then you must buy the DLC. The DLC policy is a major handicap for developing further on the game. Now that may initially seem wrong considering how often PDX says that "DLC's are what allows us to keep developing". Surely, that is correct. But the way DLC's are made is usually just a couple of extra buttons or even locking QoL improvements behind a paywall. These things to do not sit well with me, or the community, who doesn't like to pay upwards of 20€ for a couple of extra buttons.

But the problem extends further than that. I sometimes wonder how PDX knows whether their players like the game or not. For, practically none of their players have the same base-game; because DLC's change the base game. In this way DLC's are unable to create a larger and deeper experience. Instead it becomes a nebulae of shallow holes which each add a new mechanic, but never manages to connect them; because that would rely on all players having the same version of the game, and they don't.
 
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The unfortunate part is that some of the devs have the idea that they are very active on the forum. But they aren't. I read a dev some time ago on the CK3 sub, who said that "We do read, but we don't want to engage in unproductive criticism." Prior to that, they had made a thread where they showcased the vassal contract of ck3 which was gonna be completely bare bones. They had a ton of criticism, which they completely ignored until people began to call them out on it - it was actually pretty cringy as about half of the thread was criticism while the rest was various easily answered questions. They only answered the questions.

What I'm trying to say is that it's easy to not engage criticism if you deem all criticism to be nonconstructive.

Dead air also gives the impression that the devs don't care. I don't think that's true. But instead of only showing up when it's time to buy DLC, how about you also show us that you give a damn about the game's most glaring problems?

EU4 has a QA team. Are they happy when a peace deal doesn't let them add money past 95% war score? Are they happy when they DOW a junior partner, and the overlord doesn't join the war because their overlord is also DOTF? Do they believe that the current mercenary attachment system works? Are the devs satisfied that the single best strategy for any European nation is tag switching ten times and farming mission bonuses? I'm not! And If they aren't, they sure are keeping quiet about it.

Johan's apology for 1.30.5 is a good example of owning up for your mistakes. It required a totally untested patch that functionally broke multiplayer to get that.

After Golden Century, we were promised that things would change in the future. Better communication, more thoughtful development, fixing tech debt, quality-of-life improvements. What happened?

You'll see Golden Century in my badges, along with every other content DLC. I touched the stove once. If $20 gets me some mission trees, a re-do of a native DLC I already bought (!), pay-to-win monuments (fifteen admin efficiency locked behind DLC), and new diplomacy buttons, I'm not buying it. I'd rather spend the money with another developer, or do something charitable with it outside the realm of games. No hard feelings, these are video games after all - but enough is enough.
 
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Dead air also gives the impression that the devs don't care. I don't think that's true. But instead of only showing up when it's time to buy DLC, how about you also show us that you give a damn about the game's most glaring problems?

EU4 has a QA team. Are they happy when a peace deal doesn't let them add money past 95% war score? Are they happy when they DOW a junior partner, and the overlord doesn't join the war because their overlord is also DOTF? Do they believe that the current mercenary attachment system works? Are the devs satisfied that the single best strategy for any European nation is tag switching ten times and farming mission bonuses? I'm not! And If they aren't, they sure are keeping quiet about it.

Johan's apology for 1.30.5 is a good example of owning up for your mistakes. It required a totally untested patch that functionally broke multiplayer to get that.

After Golden Century, we were promised that things would change in the future. Better communication, more thoughtful development, fixing tech debt, quality-of-life improvements that aren't tied to DLC. What happened?

You'll see Golden Century in my badges, along with every other content DLC. I touched the stove once. If $20 gets me some mission trees, a re-do of a native DLC I already bought (!), pay-to-win monuments (fifteen admin efficiency locked behind DLC), and new diplomacy buttons, I'm not buying it. I'd rather spend the money with another developer, or do something charitable with it outside the realm of games. No hard feelings, these are video games after all - but enough is enough.
pay-to-win monuments?
 

RogerJerk

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pay-to-win monuments?

e107654c277cab6e247444c646d583e21f97c70f.png
 
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The unfortunate part is that some of the devs have the idea that they are very active on the forum. But they aren't. I read a dev some time ago on the CK3 sub, who said that "We do read, but we don't want to engage in unproductive criticism." Prior to that, they had made a thread where they showcased the vassal contract of ck3 which was gonna be completely bare bones. They had a ton of criticism, which they completely ignored until people began to call them out on it - it was actually pretty cringy as about half of the thread was criticism while the rest was various easily answered questions. They only answered the questions.

What I'm trying to say is that it's easy to not engage criticism if you deem all criticism to be nonconstructive.

Yet I also find it important to realize that many of the players here are very experienced. They don't criticize the game because they think its fun, they criticize it because they find that something is wrong or an aspect that is poorly implemented / or perhaps they don't like the way things are going. The point is that a lot of the criticism is warranted.

Paradox games has literally turned into massive jigsaw puzzles where if you want to have a good experience, then you must buy the DLC. The DLC policy is a major handicap for developing further on the game. Now that may initially seem wrong considering how often PDX says that "DLC's are what allows us to keep developing". Surely, that is correct. But the way DLC's are made is usually just a couple of extra buttons or even locking QoL improvements behind a paywall. These things to do not sit well with me, or the community, who doesn't like to pay upwards of 20€ for a couple of extra buttons.

But the problem extends further than that. I sometimes wonder how PDX knows whether their players like the game or not. For, practically none of their players have the same base-game; because DLC's change the base game. In this way DLC's are unable to create a larger and deeper experience. Instead it becomes a nebulae of shallow holes which each add a new mechanic, but never manages to connect them; because that would rely on all players having the same version of the game, and they don't.

For sure. I remember one time, back when terr corr was a thing, one dev (I won't cite names because I'm not sure it was who I thought it was) posted on the forums saying that so much negativity was disheartening and kept devs from answering; that if only more posts were constructive rather than complaining about what the poster thinks is wrong, more devs would be active. As you said, it is easy to not engage with criticism if you deem it nonconstructive.

I lurk on I:R forum and I find the contrast between dev interaction here and there striking.

In regards to DLC, what makes matters worse is EU4's own track record. When you look at the old DLC's you find new and unique mechanics that were introduced very early on in the dev cycle (random new world; religious reforms; NA tribe government reform) that, although janky as all hell, shows how content development has changed over the years. The jigsaw aspect of their DLC policy is one of their own making; by PDX's own words they want all DLC to be independent of one another, to blend together with the patches and none to be core to the game. Just take a look at their GDC talk.
 
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Things havent been the same since 1.25 and Jake, Game went downhill due to so many changes none of wich are there to make the game more fun. Not to mention the last good dlc was COC. You can tell Jake was part of Emperor for a long time since even Johan couldnt save it from being one of the most shallow underwhelming dlc this game ever had. The dlc fixed nothing, none of the areas it effects are more fun to play in now and even make them worse like with the HRE and all of non catholic europe. Only positive thing I can say about Emperor are all about the free patch itself and even that had major problems wich we mentioned enough already since its release. I hope after Leviathan that they do not have another major change in the dev team so Johan (alongside Tinto) can work without pesky buerocracy being in the way.
 
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Lmao using Portugal to justify Golden Century?
1.30 sorted out Portugal a bit not Golden Century.
Portugal had trade efficiency twice in its ideas...
The community feedback on Portugal was ignored and it continues to be a meme trading/colonization country, despite of historically being poor traders, since the india operation was being run by soldiers, and poor colonisers because they barely had the manpower...
For the people disagreeing with me wheres some hot facts:
"It should be noted that due to the presence of the Portuguese at Ternate, the flow of cloves from the northern Moluccas to Banda and Ambon was considerably reduced. Now, the Portuguese carried it directly to Malacca and, from there, distributed it to the consumer markets further afield. But, as strange as it may seem, the monopoly of the clove trade finished in a loss for the Portuguese Crown! The greed of the Captains, knights and soldiers that went to Ternate was so great that they acquired cloves by a price much above that stipulated. During more than five years the fortress’s factor was not able to buy a single bale of cloves! As a result, the cloves that were bought at Malacca to be sent to India and thereafter to Lisbon finished costing four times more than when they had been sold by the Javanese merchants! Regarding the inability of the Portuguese knights and soldiers to trade in the sophisticated Asian markets, João de Barros (A distinguished Portuguese chronicler) makes this delicious comment in the book V of his «Décadas»: «And as Gentiles and Moors of the East, in matters of buying and selling are the most fine and sagacious men in the world, calm and cold in concealing their desires and interests, that nobody can find out, always in the deeds of trade are superior to us, as we in those of war are superior to them»."

Source: Saturnino Monteiro Portuguese Sea battles Volume 2.

Facts. You gotta love them. ;)
 
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For the people disagreeing with me wheres some hot facts:
"It should be noted that due to the presence of the Portuguese at Ternate, the flow of cloves from the northern Moluccas to Banda and Ambon was considerably reduced. Now, the Portuguese carried it directly to Malacca and, from there, distributed it to the consumer markets further afield. But, as strange as it may seem, the monopoly of the clove trade finished in a loss for the Portuguese Crown! The greed of the Captains, knights and soldiers that went to Ternate was so great that they acquired cloves by a price much above that stipulated. During more than five years the fortress’s factor was not able to buy a single bale of cloves! As a result, the cloves that were bought at Malacca to be sent to India and thereafter to Lisbon finished costing four times more than when they had been sold by the Javanese merchants! Regarding the inability of the Portuguese knights and soldiers to trade in the sophisticated Asian markets, João de Barros (A distinguished Portuguese chronicler) makes this delicious comment in the book V of his «Décadas»: «And as Gentiles and Moors of the East, in matters of buying and selling are the most fine and sagacious men in the world, calm and cold in concealing their desires and interests, that nobody can find out, always in the deeds of trade are superior to us, as we in those of war are superior to them»."

Source: Saturnino Monteiro Portuguese Sea battles Volume 2.

Facts. You gotta love them. ;)
I hear you, I hear you 7. EU4 doesn't honor Portugal's situation in the XV and XVI centuries. For once, it has to share the trade node with Castile, and thus Castile's absorbs much of Portugal's trade profits, something that didn't happen in real life. WE PLAYERS DEMAND A BETTER PORTUGAL!!!
 
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I have noticed continuous criticism since at least Golden Century. Is it really deserved? Is it a tradition already? I myself was quite critical of some features implemented by Emperor DLC, particularly HRE and Catholicism changes. Is the EU4 public moanful? Do we like to complain too much?
One of Golden Century's main features was one that made AI Spain often turn all of the Netherlands and Southern Italy Spanish, and then they nerfed that feature into the ground so hard it might as well have been removed (which was a good change tbh, but still worth mentioning). Let's also not forget how absolutely broken the AI voting still is in Imperial Incidents. Emperor also added a permanent -100 relations with all other religions for Catholics as a common result despite how unrealistic it is. And now a major part of what will likely be a $20 DLC are a few trivial buttons that the AI won't know how to use. It's nice, but it is absolutely not the tall feature PDX was parading it as.

One of the biggest reasons wide play is most often done by people is because the dopamine rush from making your map color bigger is much of what fuels EU4's fun. It's a wargame and conquering stuff is the most interesting thing in the game. Sitting at peace for 400 years is incredibly boring. These simple reasons alone make wide play so much more interesting than tall play. I've seen nothing that actually addresses how boring long-term peace is.

The issue is that Paradox is just adding more and more minor features that the AI won't know how to use, and expecting me to pay $20 for it. What I see as the real meat behind Leviathan (what you're paying for, not the free update) is the QOL features (carpet sieging), Totemism's mechanics, and the monument system (still ultimately just some art and nice modifiers). It's just not worth the money whatsoever. SEA and NA is definitely pretty nice though, I do have to say.

Now do keep in mind I'm not criticizing EU4 really here, or PDX as a whole, but the recent trends in the updates to EU4, which have altogether just gotten worse and worse. I still enjoy this game, but I don't get why they're adding so much needless bloat. I'm pretty sure Johan himself has admitted that some of what he wants to do with EU4 could only be done with a complete rework of the game's foundation, but he can't go through with such a thing because the game is too old for that. There's no fixing the simple wargame EU4 is at its core, so I'm only left confused and annoyed by these DLCs that only add some nice buttons and game-breaking bugs.

As a final note, I've really enjoyed much of what they've done with EU4 and I've had a lot of fun with this game, and the devs are the only ones to thank for that. My criticism is not towards the devs whatsoever, but what I think has been a declining trend in the quality of updates.
 
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One of Golden Century's main features was one that made AI Spain often turn all of the Netherlands and Southern Italy Spanish, and then they nerfed that feature into the ground so hard it might as well have been removed (which was a good change tbh, but still worth mentioning). Let's also not forget how absolutely broken the AI voting still is in Imperial Incidents. Emperor also added a permanent -100 relations with all other religions forever for Catholics as a common result despite how unrealistic it is. And now a major part of what will likely be a $20 DLC are a few trivial buttons that the AI won't know how to use. It's nice, but it is absolutely not the tall feature PDX was parading it as.

One of the biggest reasons wide play is most often done by people is because the dopamine rush from making your map color bigger is much of what fuels EU4's fun. It's a wargame and conquering stuff is the most interesting thing in the game. Sitting at peace for 400 years is incredibly boring. These simple reasons alone make wide play so much more interesting than tall play. I've seen nothing that actually addresses how boring long-term peace is.

The issue is that Paradox is just adding more and more minor features that the AI won't know how to use, and expecting me to pay $20 for it. What I see as the real meat behind Leviathan (what you're paying for, not the free update) is the QOL features (carpet sieging), Totemism's mechanics, and the monument system (still ultimately just some art and nice modifiers). It's just not worth the money whatsoever. SEA and NA is definitely pretty nice though, I do have to say.

Now do keep in mind I'm not criticizing EU4 really here, or PDX as a whole, but the recent trends in the updates to EU4, which have altogether just gotten worse and worse. I still enjoy this game, but I don't get why they're adding so much needless bloat. I'm pretty sure Johan himself has admitted that some of what he wants to do with EU4 could only be done with a complete rework of the game's foundation, but he can't go through with such a thing because the game is too old for that. There's no fixing the simple wargame EU4 is at its core, so I'm only left confused and annoyed by these DLCs that only add some nice buttons and game-breaking bugs.

As a final note, I've really enjoyed much of what they've done with EU4 and I've had a lot of fun with this game, and the devs are the only ones to thank for that. My criticism is not towards the devs whatsoever, but what I think has been a declining trend in the quality of updates.
Exactly my thoughts! Very well put, thank you.
 
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Runite Drill

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i just joined this subforum to keep on top of the coming update and...boy...EUIV players do seem to be a special breed...
4-5 years ago this subforum was much more lively, welcoming and positive. People would engage in large meaningful discussions about mechanics, strategies and nations - along with the devs (Kaiser Johan still drops in now-and-then). Particularly when a new update dropped as people wouldn't yet know if a world conquest was possible (back when they were the exception, not the norm, and everyone was fine with this).
Now it's mostly filled with complaints and basic questions, and there is little interaction with the developers.

It's interesting to have seen it change over the years. I think the change started after The Cossacks, when Wiz moved on.
 
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And yet CDPR gives dlcs away for free , sometimes entire story campaigns just ship with them. CK2 had a free update that added and entire new starting year for players along with some new tags and decisions.
CDPR ships games so broken they managed to get booted off PSN by Sony as a high profile AAA developer.

If they give you ”free DLCs” in light of such performance it’s nothing but a marketing stunt.
 
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People are always angry, there are just more of them when there is a release.
I've been playing this game long enough to remember when there was total hype before a new patch. This time around seems more like dread.

They went to the well a few too many times with disppointing releases. Burned a lot of goodwill.
 
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