Why is it that many people are angry right before the release of a new DLC?

[Reman]

There's been a direct correlation between the growth in EU4's popularity and an increase in toxicity on both these forums and on reddit. I imagine with lockdowns and people sitting in their house, a lot have fixated on things they don't like which only increases their rage.

Nah, there has always been a fair amount of criticism on the forums in the decade+ I've been here, and I haven't seen the toxicity change that markedly relative to how well the game is currently doing. There might have been a bit of an uptick in the 1.22-1.29 era when there were some very questionable design decisions made, but the critiques were well warranted in my view.

Insults to the devs have skyrocketed the past few years.

I definitely haven't seen this. I don't doubt that *some* people insult the devs, but it's certainly not anywhere close to a majority of the people who criticize the game for one reason or another. Implying critics of the game are awash in people who use ad-hominems is a pretty clear example of weakmanning. It's the internet. There will always be some bad actors who can't control themselves and lash out. The correct response is to trivially ignore them. If anything, I've noticed most people are incredibly well behaved when the devs actually show up in threads, almost as if the devs are minor celebrities.

The biggest change on the forums I've noticed has been the sharp reduction in dev comment frequency. Paradox used to be ahead of the curve here, with weekly dev diaries being almost unheard of when they first started them many years ago. Complimenting that with frequent ad-hoc posts on the forums, and it felt like the devs were particularly in-synch with the playerbase. As Paradox has grown, however, the frequency of comments has declined to the point where the dev diaries are the only time the devs talk to the community outside of specific exceptions (e.g. Johan and Arheo). During the 1.22-1.29, it felt like there was almost permanent radio silence from the devs which increased frustration quite a bit. There were numerous glaring flaws in the game and all we'd get is a dev diary on a mission tree or a sprite pack.

 

[gronak]

Nah, there has always been a fair amount of criticism on the forums in the decade+ I've been here, and I haven't seen the toxicity change that markedly relative to how well the game is currently doing. There might have been a bit of an uptick in the 1.22-1.29 era when there were some very questionable design decisions made, but the critiques were well warranted in my view.

It is possible that the same ratio of posts that are toxic, but since the player base has increased the raw number of toxic posts have increased. The moderators do a good job on these forums at cleaning up rage fuelled posts, so you're more likely to see old postings with abuse on other platforms. I know fine well there is a clear distinction between criticisms and being toxic, I definitely am not saying the two are the same. Constructive criticism is good and should continue. It's good that you agree there was an uptick in the past few years (1.22 - 1.29), so surely you will remember the abuse directed towards the at the time game director?

I definitely haven't seen this. I don't doubt that *some* people insult the devs, but it's certainly not anywhere close to a majority of the people who criticize the game for one reason or another. Implying critics of the game are awash in people who use ad-hominems is a pretty clear example of weakmanning. It's the internet. There will always be some bad actors who can't control themselves and lash out. The correct response is to trivially ignore them. If anything, I've noticed most people are incredibly well behaved when the devs actually show up in threads, almost as if the devs are minor celebrities.

For a start I never claimed or implied that it was a majority. You'll see more of this on other platforms such as twitter - the forums do seem to be the best behaved (which the moderation plays a large role) but still there has been an increase.

My 2nd paragraph was a continuation of the topic of the 1st - so from the toxic posts there are still usually valid points. I didn't intend to imply that most posts criticizing a feature were rife with insults. I can see why some people could think I was trying to generalise and imply that most criticisms of the game are accompanied by abuse, but that wasn't the case.

 

[RichardOlcese]

Loot boxes make a ton of money too.

What are loot boxes?

 

[RichardOlcese]

Rough idea of player numbers, retention, growth etc. Us forum'ers are a distinct minority, it's a fact, please stop believing it isn't.

Europa Universalis IV - Steam Charts

An ongoing analysis of Steam's player numbers, seeing what's been played the most.

steamcharts.com

View attachment 701964

There's a silent majority of players, true. But we forumers represent them extremely well, particularly when we demand a better AI!!!

 

[Harpagon]

That is the purpose of the forum, people can write their opinion and share ideas. I don't really think it is negative though I feel it is more indifferent and tired. I see more discussions about EU5 and how the successor should work rather then what to do with EU4. There is always the same problem topics popping up about AI problem, debt, forts, AI army walking to Siberia etc. and at some point in time you just accept these and no longer bother to read it. As Reman wrote there were more interactions with the developer but that died as well. If they could solve these issues they would have done it already so I can understand their inactivity.

As for the DLC for 20 EUR (wich is 1/3 price of a new AAA game) I expect some game changing mechanics (Rights of Man) or a very big concentrated overwork of an area (Cradle of Civilization). This DLC offer none of them it is too de-focused. The free patch and map rework is for SEA but most of the content is for North America or small click a button for tall play and diplomacy. The inclusion of the content pack into the DLC just strengthen this feel as I never buy them on full price.

Don't take me wrong, I see the 20 EUR work from the team and I believe the price they ask is right. The problem is I don't see the fun the DLC provides for me would be worth 20 EUR and I just can't justify the purchase. The forum is there to give these feedbacks to the developer so I do that and I know that in the end I'm just one from many players and if others will have great fun with the DLC I will not be unhappy. It just means Leviathan was not for me.

 

[RogerJerk]

What are loot boxes?

If you're asking in good faith - randomized gamble-y in-game purchases that cost real money. They can be part of a pay-to-win product. They are controversial but are usually included to maximize profits. They generate a lot of money.

EU4 obviously doesn't have those, but here's Johan in February:

Consider that along with posts like this:

and this:

If you acknowledge that QOL and player power items are locked behind paid content, and you also no longer believe that the game can be changed in a meaningful way, this is becoming too cynical for me.

I've been playing Paradox games since HOI2 came out more than 15 years ago. And again, I've had a good time! I love EU4. But I'm not going to keep buying EU4 DLC if it's become a make-work program for game developers. I'll just play what I already have.

 

[Piotrzeci]

Yeah, there is plenty of legitimate constructive criticism that is not asking for too much. Game hasn't been properly updated in a while and has a ton of little bugs since Emperor, it's difficult to provide feedback on upcoming features without it being ignored, there are not well designed systems in recent DLCs, etc.
And it's not like it's unfounded; both corruption from territories and government reforms being Dharma exclusive were quite heavily criticized and they ended up being changed (though making DLC feature free after the initial sales were done is hardly a good way of resolving it).

 

[EarlKonrad]

What are loot boxes?

Digital kinder eggs.

 

[phunkracy]

I love EU4, but the updates for the game were super underwhelming, useless clutter or simply broke the game. Nowadays I have to gift my allies several thousand ducats just so they can consider joining an offensive war, because they are almost always in a huge debt. This however doesn't stop them from starting useless wars where they call me as an ally; so not only I don't benefit from offensive alliances, but I also have to contend with supporting their war effort in numerous hopeless wars.

Colonization is an immensely boring clickfest and colonial nations are boring as F, so are native american nations. You just pass the time on 5x speed for 2 centuries until something meaningful happens. Trade companies are just as useless, with their only purpose being gaining a foothold in India, then engaging in centuries - long slogfest dishing it out against huge Indian blobs.

Naval warfare is one dimensional, boring and plainly sucks.

Government reforms are just a meaningless button that you push every 50 years for a minor buff and then forget entirely. So are religious orders, next to useless.

Hegemon mechanics are useless, as by the time you earn 1k ducats / have 250 heavy ships / 1 million troops the game is pretty much over and there's no challenge nor real benefit to being a hegemon.

Paradox struggles to bring forth mission trees for non-major nations which MODDERS have done several times over, for free. And those mission trees are usually super underwhelming / broken / overpowered.

The list of grievances is long and I'm happy that I didn't pay full price for the whole package, and instead my brother shares with me his copy of EU4. I couldn't justify spending entire month worth of income for such lazy - ass updates to a game that don't bring anything fresh,.

---------------------------------------------------------

I can understand that legacy spaghetti code can be an insurmountable obstacle in the game development. All right. Yes, this is an excuse for not developing EU4 further. But please, cut the crap and don't bother us with useless DLC that brings either basic QOL changes or things that modders already do for free and much better (MEIOU, missions expanded etc).

Announce EU5 and stop with all the BS.

 

[Zaddy]

They've stated they're going to continue making DLC as long as it sells. Do with that information what you will. I certainly will be...

 

[RichardOlcese]

Digital kinder eggs.

I still don't really get what that is... I even looked at the Wikipedia page for the concept, but still don't get it. Are there loot boxes in EU4, or other Paradox game, so that I can understand what it is?

 

[prismaticmarcus]

I still don't really get what that is... I even looked at the Wikipedia page for the concept, but still don't get it. Are there loot boxes in EU4, or other Paradox game, so that I can understand what it is?

no, not in PDX games. they're used more in mobile games e.g. 'pay $5 of real money and get an ingame reward!' that's why these games are called 'pay to win.'

 

[RichardOlcese]

There are a couple of things to bear in mind... Johan was there at the start, literally, two decades ago. He was there when the forum had a few thousand members.

The EU team is now Paradox Tinto, who, for the most part, started a few months back. Give them some time to get their feet under them.

Additionally, as you said, Johan will come and be transparent even if players aren't happy... if he disagrees strongly with the vocal players, he'll brush it off. Not all devs, or even not all people, can do the same. Especially when one sees how some aggressive some feedback can be.

That guy Johan is a great guy. He's always there when there are mistakes, or big complaints. He's very kind, and always provides satisfactory explanations/feedback/info to us players and EU4 enthusiasts. Johan has my utter respect!

 

[Had a dad]

That guy Johan is a great guy. He's always there when there are mistakes, or big complaints. He's very kind, and always provides satisfactory explanations/feedback/info to us players and EU4 enthusiasts. Johan has my utter respect!

I guess you are one of Johan's biggest fans, eh?

 

[Quickmelty]

Agreed with this. Paradox isn't a charity.

Of course, the DLCs are a cash grab. Why wouldn't it be? Developers don't get paid to make content to make some people feel better. They get paid to produce content that makes the company money.

Paradox Interactive is a public company. Like all public companies, they are motivated by their shareholders to make returns for the money invested, and preferably lots of money at that. DLCs allows them to squeeze more money out of a game before they have to move on and develop a new one.

Shareholder's interest always comes first. Consumers are only relevant in so much that they matter to the shareholder. This is nothing new and literally how all publicly traded companies work.

Doing nothing but fixing and balancing the core game doesn't make them money. Producing new content that people buys is what matters.

As a CK2 dev once said, when asked about when they will stop making DLCs: "When people stop buying them".

And yet CDPR gives dlcs away for free , sometimes entire story campaigns just ship with them. CK2 had a free update that added and entire new starting year for players along with some new tags and decisions.

 

[MrReaper182]

i just joined this subforum to keep on top of the coming update and...boy...EUIV players do seem to be a special breed...

The stellaris part of this forum is a million billion times worse for people moaning. They just seem to moan so can they can say they had their daily moan at a popular game.

 

[RichardOlcese]

The stellaris part of this forum is a million billion times worse for people moaning. They just seem to moan so can they can say they had their daily moan at a popular game.

That sounds like fun! I will buy Stellaris now!

 

[MrReaper182]

That is the purpose of the forum, people can write their opinion and share ideas. I don't really think it is negative though I feel it is more indifferent and tired. I see more discussions about EU5 and how the successor should work rather then what to do with EU4. There is always the same problem topics popping up about AI problem, debt, forts, AI army walking to Siberia etc. and at some point in time you just accept these and no longer bother to read it. As Reman wrote there were more interactions with the developer but that died as well. If they could solve these issues they would have done it already so I can understand their inactivity.

As for the DLC for 20 EUR (wich is 1/3 price of a new AAA game) I expect some game changing mechanics (Rights of Man) or a very big concentrated overwork of an area (Cradle of Civilization). This DLC offer none of them it is too de-focused. The free patch and map rework is for SEA but most of the content is for North America or small click a button for tall play and diplomacy. The inclusion of the content pack into the DLC just strengthen this feel as I never buy them on full price.

Don't take me wrong, I see the 20 EUR work from the team and I believe the price they ask is right. The problem is I don't see the fun the DLC provides for me would be worth 20 EUR and I just can't justify the purchase. The forum is there to give these feedbacks to the developer so I do that and I know that in the end I'm just one from many players and if others will have great fun with the DLC I will not be unhappy. It just means Leviathan was not for me.

The trouble with the forums like this that they always become a place where people go more to moan more than they do give constructive feedback and a lot of the comment sections turns into I'm right and you are wrong when trying to talk on a problem some people have with parts of Paradox grand strategy games. A lot of people who post on the game part of this forum seem to think that their views are the only ones worth having. Without the fun section of this forum then I would never come here because if I wanted to hear people moan like children I'll listen to my own toddlers. Computer games forums are not nice places to go and talk about computer games and that sucks. If I was Paradox, I'll close this whole place down as they seem to get way more undeserved hate on here than they do love for bringing us amazing grand strategy games to play in our free time.

 

[holyvigil]

And yet CDPR gives dlcs away for free , sometimes entire story campaigns just ship with them. CK2 had a free update that added and entire new starting year for players along with some new tags and decisions.

And paradox gives away the equivalent of DLC with free patches like for example free unit sprites. It's still a business model for CDPR and Paradox but I'd say base EU4 has become a much more fun game than when it was released.

 

[newtlord]

Fundamentally, I expect the reason for "anger" is that, the better part of a year after the release of the previous DLC, the features of said DLC still contain a great deal that ranges from badly-balanced to outright nonfunctional. Maybe things will finally be fixed in the coming patch (and the features of the coming DLC will be fixed in the DLC after that, and so on and so on); experience suggests that much of it will just remain semi- or non-functional indefinitely. A certain degree of disgruntlement is to be expected.