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nomoi

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I think that turn-based style would be more entertaining and very useful for the players.And real time will make it difficult to play (example when u are trying to develope your economy an enemy army could march in your territory.Do u think it fine???)
 

unmerged(232)

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Originally posted by nomoi:
I think that turn-based style would be more entertaining and very useful for the players.And real time will make it difficult to play (example when u are trying to develope your economy an enemy army could march in your territory.Do u think it fine???)

Two things:

1. It's way to late to change anything as fundamental as whether the game is real time or turn based. Then why do you comment on that? You could state that you hope future games of EU will be turn based but let's wait for the release of the game to say anything about any successors...

2. As you can make the game advance very slowly I can't understand why real time is a problem. If you have enough time to think about what to do it doesn't (IMHO) really matter whether the game is real time or turn based. Besides, personally I like to play with other humans and there isn't many (including myself) that want to play a 10+ hour game where they spend most of the time waiting for the other playes.

kdp
 

unmerged(181)

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The fact that real-time can have a player get caught off guard is not particularly a bad thing. Surprise attacks are realistic. It also forces the player to make priorities and focus on the situation, which is also realistic. For some reason, monarchs tended to neglect infrastructure when they were at war.

However, for a real-time strategy to work, it has to avoid the tedium, especially if it is unnecessary, and to provide lots of quick information for timely decision making. As far as I can tell, EU does a good job of this.

For a counter example, 'Star Wars: Rebellion' (called 'Supremacy' in Europe, I believe) is how not to make a real-time strategy game. Unbelieveably simple but important tasks that could have easily been automated took up inordinate amounts of time compared to the interesting events. For example, the game forced the player to re-deploy spies after every mission, even if the unit was constantly repeating the exact same mission - a simple 'repeat mission' toggle could greatly have reduced the effort. The computer 'governors' were poor and totally unreliable so the player had to do everything. And the information systems made it difficult to find out anything important, especially the email-like message system that forced the player to open every message to learn info that could have been easily included in the subject (not to mention that incoming enemy fleets were not noteworthy enough to consider an alert). All this (plus a number of other serious flaws) made the game less of a game and more of a chore.
 

unmerged(26)

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Don't remember that you can pause the game and continue to give EVERY orders and look at what you want.
Much important real time give you some interresting advantage compaired to turn based games: if you engaged the battle and see that it turn very bad for you, you can retreat before the destruction.
Against AI, real time is really not a problem (it as even it's advantage).
Against humans players, you are not obliged too wait hours before someone do something.
 

Bogey

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The game is going to be tought and frustrating to play multiplayer. You will really have to keep an eye on your navies. this is not necessarily bad because it makes it more of a game. the spainsh player has more options then the polish player but the polish player can keep a better eye on what he has and has time to manage it better.

Fortunately the game is a great single player game, just keep one hand near the pause button and you will have endless hours of precision empire building. :)
 

unmerged(45)

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this is novel whining...normally these types of games (although this one is just a bit unique) are stoned by critisism demanding 'faster action' 'why don't they do it real-time'

these are answered by: 'you can't put the detail into a real-time game that you can in a turn-based one' and 'It would make realism impossible'

Well the fact is that although you are on a timer...it would seem that you can set it so slow that all but the hardest of hard-core turn-based junkies (and believe me! I know the type...the ones that take over an hour at a turn of CivII) would be satisfied by the time they get.

Although this game is real-time...and thankfully so - I would not like to wait for an hour between my turns. (as has been mentioned above)

Anyway - its good - and it means that you are held to the computer and don't get time to 'make a decision over lunch' (something else I've seen somebody do!)

As you may be able to see - I'm not really a turn-based man...but I'm not really a traditional RTS Style man either...thats why EU is my dream game (as it is for so many of us) - EU is different - it is real-time, but I've a feeling that from what I've been hearing (and seeing) these past few months...It's going to hit the fine line of real-time with grace, timing, and style. Something I have only seen twice before.

[This message has been edited by Whitey (edited 26-08-2000).]
 

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Originally posted by nomoi:
I think that turn-based style would be more entertaining and very useful for the players.And real time will make it difficult to play (example when u are trying to develope your economy an enemy army could march in your territory.Do u think it fine???)


One thing it does, whether by design or not, is simulate the limited time monarchs had to do everything they had to do. Despite some prodigoious workers (Philip II of Spain was a true workaholic) they never had time to do it all. Amazing in Civ you can build up an army, research everything,buld buildings, do diplpmacy. An RT ganme that is paced properly (read no Warcraft or AoE) will force you to prioritze actions to make sure some get done and you more accuractly feel your decisions. Plus, I think the game is pausable (if I'm recalling other threads right) for that think time.

Plus, with the interesting multiplayer aspects TB is a death knell. I can't play Civ and their ilk mp becuase the waiting kills me.
 

Doomdark

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Plus, with the interesting multiplayer aspects TB is a death knell. I can't play Civ and their ilk mp becuase the waiting kills me.

There is a form of TB that works pretty well in multiplayer mode - simultaneous turns. While obviously not as smooth as RT, it does make it possible to multiplay a TB game without great agony. 'Age of Wonders' is probably the best example of this type of game.
 

unmerged(232)

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Originally posted by Doomdark:
There is a form of TB that works pretty well in multiplayer mode - simultaneous turns. While obviously not as smooth as RT, it does make it possible to multiplay a TB game without great agony. 'Age of Wonders' is probably the best example of this type of game.

IMHO most of those ways of making a TB game into a RT game by making the turns simultaneous are miserable. I don't mind simultaneous turns but I don't like it when it makes the game 'different' from the normal TB game. When I play a multiplayer game I want to feel that the designers did focus as much on the multiplayer part as on the single player part.

The best game with simultaneous turns I can think of is 'Stars!'. Now that was a game that was created with multiplay in mind! That's why I'm also looking forward to 'Stars! Supernova Genesis' which also should be finished within the next few months (although EU is still THE game on my horizon :)).

kdp
 

Sidney

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Originally posted by Doomdark:
There is a form of TB that works pretty well in multiplayer mode - simultaneous turns. While obviously not as smooth as RT, it does make it possible to multiplay a TB game without great agony. 'Age of Wonders' is probably the best example of this type of game.

I've heard a lot of folks say good things about AoW. I probaly should have gotten it over Disciples: Sacred Lands- whihc was a good game with some interesting features. AoW sounds more deep and engaging.
 

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Turned based games have a certain type of elegance, as it reflects their board game ancestry. However they become tedious when you, the 'Overlord of Earth' have to take charge for the search and destroy mission to take out the remaining resistance. Recent games have allowed you automate units and appoint governors (I'm thinking of SMAC in particular) and this has alleviated some of the micromanagement misery.

I have yet to play a RTS game in the empire management genre that has the depth of a TB game. It appears to me that I'll be playing EU with one hand on the pause button, since there are clearly so many options and considerations. I'm really glad that EU allows you to catch your breath by performing actions when the game is paused. When I play AoE, I hated the fact that the button should have been relabeld 'freeze' since you can't do anything at all (even scroll around the map) when the game was frozen.
 

unmerged(334)

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Yes I too think that real time game is better. If you have been a king in real life you would not be able to stop everything and get a coffee or a sandwich. if some other country attacked yours you had to choose what is more important to do. In a game I am sure that when you looking on other windows you get alert if someone attacks you. That is when you drop everything and direct the war.

As to new ideas. It would be rely cool if you could have more than one player at the same team. On responsible fro diplomacy, other for military, other for economy. That would be really realistic. And we would not have to worry about researching and warring at the same time.
 

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'Real time is clearly superior. It's more realistic. The real world (which a strategy game tries to emulate as closely as possible) doesn't progress by a series of turns.'

I cannot fully agree. So-called 'real time' might be a more realistic emulation of the heat of a battle, but most of the kinds of decisions you will be making in EU were not made under conditions where a few passing seconds could spell doom.

Not having played the game yet, I cannot know which system would work better in EU. Based on everything I've seen and heard in the AAR's, I'm more than willing to give the designers the benefit of the doubt.

However, the thing I am trusting them to do is to get the gameplay to be enjoyale. If I really wanted realism, I would be asking for an extremely slow moving, reflective game.

In fact, I've always been bugged by the very term 'real time.' It is continuous time, not real time. Very few games would be any fun at all in REAL time. In the case of EU, if you think it's a long wait to get your hands on a copy of the game, imagine the wait for your explorer to return from the other side of the world.... And your descendants would need to finish the grand campaign for you. Now that would be realism!
 

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Originally posted by Beorn:
'Real time is clearly superior. It's more realistic. The real world (which a strategy game tries to emulate as closely as possible) doesn't progress by a series of turns.'

I cannot fully agree. So-called 'real time' might be a more realistic emulation of the heat of a battle, but most of the kinds of decisions you will be making in EU were not made under conditions where a few passing seconds could spell doom.

Not having played the game yet, I cannot know which system would work better in EU. Based on everything I've seen and heard in the AAR's, I'm more than willing to give the designers the benefit of the doubt.

However, the thing I am trusting them to do is to get the gameplay to be enjoyale. If I really wanted realism, I would be asking for an extremely slow moving, reflective game.

In fact, I've always been bugged by the very term 'real time.' It is continuous time, not real time. Very few games would be any fun at all in REAL time. In the case of EU, if you think it's a long wait to get your hands on a copy of the game, imagine the wait for your explorer to return from the other side of the world.... And your descendants would need to finish the grand campaign for you. Now that would be realism!


Yeah, on that count I agree with you. People have said on these boards that real time is better because it forces you to make snap decisions, particularly in war. But during this time period, a ruler didn't really have to make snap decisions at all. He could spend hours and even days making a decision. Armies took weeks to march from one place to another. And the argument that it forces you to handle more than one task at a time isn't valid either for basically the same reason. Real rulers at that time had plenty of time to make each decision, he wasn't faced with 50 different decisions to make in 10 minutes. So on that I agree with you. But this could be simulated in real time by simply having things occur slowly enough to be realistic.

The problem I have with turn-based games like Imperialism II is that it didn't (and the way the game was designed, couldn't) properly simulate how long things should take. You discover the entire New World in the first 5 minutes of the game. That's retarded. In EU there is a time system, so when you push off on a mission of exploration, it will take a realistic amount of time to reach your destination.

Another example of this is how you can move an army from one end of the world to another in one turn. Because it's not real time, someone 1000 miles closer to the scene of battle has no advantage in getting there first. A real time system solves the problem of the unrealistic 'turn-unit' of time.

[This message has been edited by Vurbil (edited 16-10-2000).]
 

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In that case, we agree completely.

Yes, that particular situation seriously harmed Imperialism II. I can send troops from Europe to my colony in the time that it takes you to unload troops from your ship! This situation undermined all the strategy of the game!
 

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Originally posted by nomoi:
I think that turn-based style would be more entertaining and very useful for the players.And real time will make it difficult to play (example when u are trying to develope your economy an enemy army could march in your territory.Do u think it fine???)

turn based is not nearly as good as real time in my opinion.
 

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There is another form of multiplayer turnbased moves. The problem with simulatnius moves is that whoever has the best connection and fastest reflexes might get to move unit 2 times before someelse moves it even once. By waiting and moving last and then being fast and move first.

Combat Mission/Shogun has another way, you plot your moves and then they are executed at the same time. Works great for those games...