Why is Hejaz not part of the Mamluks?

[Esoteric Rogue]

Last month, this was mentioned in a thread, in passing. My brain has locked on to the concept and won't let it go. Now, I'm far from a history expert and I haven't look at much beyond casually searching Wikipedia and Google.

Hejaz shouldn't be an independent nation in EU4's time period. Wikipedia simply states:

"The region was [after 656CE] under the control of regional powers such as Egypt and the Ottoman Empire throughout much of its later history. In 1916, Sharif Hussein ibn `Ali proclaimed himself King of an independent Hejaz."

Someone had stated that Hejaz should be a vassal of the Mamluks, but from the little I've seen I don't know a reason for that. As far as I know, they should start as Mamluk cores. Hejaz is 49 development compared to Mamluk's 295.

I'm in favor of stronger Mamluks: Ottomans always need stronger opposition. I think Ethiopia could easily tolerate stronger Mamluks. My in game experience is that a human Ethiopia, Tunisia, or Morocco never saw much difficulty in partitioning Mamluk territory with the Ottomans. Is that necessarily inevitable?

I'd like to see some discussion on the subject of Hejaz's independence in EU4, or even the Mamluks lack of strength.

What do you think?

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[hashinshin]

I think the only people disputing Mamluks owning Hejaz is Paradox themselves. I can't find ANY other source that shows Mamluks not owning Hejaz. I've never even seen comments like "oh it had a lot of autonomy." To me it feels like making Hejaz guaranteed rather than owned would be like making Orleans guaranteed rather than owned for France.

 

[Secuter]

Suppose that the Mamluks owned in name only, though I don't know a whole lot about the area.

 

[Aythne]

Might want to tag @Trin Tragula with a question like this. My guess is it's probably a gameplay decision. Hejaz often goes ham in Arabia, so having it as Mamluk lands would mean them eating the peninsula in the time the Ottomans took back their cores and Byzantium, leading to a potential stalemate in the levant. Ottomans not taking Syria/Egypt early is pretty much the end of the line for them as a relevant great power.

 

[Trin Tragula]

The Hejaz was ruled by the sharifs of Mecca, not the Mamluks. You could well argue that their relationship should be as a subject though.
In reality the sharifs would mostly go along with whoever controlled Egypt as that's where they a substantial part of the food needed to support themselves from.
On most maps on the net you'll see them drawn as mamluk, just as the one in the op, which is probably an ok simplification for most purposes.

 

[Ketilsen]

The Hejaz was ruled by the sharifs of Mecca, not the Mamluks. You could well argue that their relationship should be as a subject though.

So does this mean Hejaz might become a Mamluk vassal in some future update?

 

[Gratak]

So does this mean Hejaz might become a Mamluk vassal in some future update?

With an event to switch to the Ottomans once they conquer egypt? More power to the Ottomans


@OP:
I disagree that Ottomans need stronger enemies. Make their enemies weaker and Paradox can finally nerf Ottomans without hindering their usual expansion. Ottomans (even if owning only Anatolia and Greece) are simply a lot stronger currently than would be realistic.

 

[Vaximillian]

The Hejaz was ruled by the sharifs of Mecca, not the Mamluks. You could well argue that their relationship should be as a subject though.

A march, maybe?
Something has to be done to dissuade the Mamluks from up and revoking the march ASAP though. Same for Poland/Moldavia.

 

[DeathOClock]

The Hejaz was ruled by the sharifs of Mecca, not the Mamluks. You could well argue that their relationship should be as a subject though.
In reality the sharifs would mostly go along with whoever controlled Egypt as that's where they a substantial part of the food needed to support themselves from.
On most maps on the net you'll see them drawn as mamluk, just as the one in the op, which is probably an ok simplification for most purposes.

So, am I correct when I say when the Ottomans utterly crushed the Mamluks the sharifs of Mecca had to recognize the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire as Caliph? I think it'd be cool for an event to happen between the Ottomans and Hejaz like this if the Mamluks are crushed and the Hejaz have no other relations to the Mamluks. Of course, this is if it doesn't already exist, I don't ever play Hejaz so I wouldn't know.

Edit: I've also noticed a lack of info on the internet about the time Hejaz existed, under Mamluks or not. I only found info from after the Ottomans defeated the Mamluks.

 

[MiniaAr]

The Hejaz was ruled by the sharifs of Mecca, not the Mamluks. You could well argue that their relationship should be as a subject though.
In reality the sharifs would mostly go along with whoever controlled Egypt as that's where they a substantial part of the food needed to support themselves from.
On most maps on the net you'll see them drawn as mamluk, just as the one in the op, which is probably an ok simplification for most purposes.

But isn't this behaviour exactly what a vassal/march would do in game?
Hejaz is a march/vassal of the Mamelukes > Ottomans fully annex the Mamelukes > Hejaz becomes a march/vassal of the Ottomans.

The relationship between the Mamelukes Sultans and the Sharifs of Mecca could be modeled the same way the relationship between the King of Poland and the Hospodar of Moldavia, e.g. as a march:
The Sharifs recognize the overall authority of the Sultan in Cairo, but are mostly left to their own device.

 

[yuri2045]

But isn't this behaviour exactly what a vassal/march would do in game?
Hejaz is a march/vassal of the Mamelukes > Ottomans fully annex the Mamelukes > Hejaz becomes a march/vassal of the Ottomans.

That's exactly what happens although I'm pretty sure the AI would probably just end Mamluks suzerainty over Hejaz before annexing them.

 

[MiniaAr]

That's exactly what happens although I'm pretty sure the AI would probably just end Mamluks suzerainty over Hejaz before annexing them.

You mean in history right? Because in the game, with Hejaz being independent it's more likely that they'll carve themselves a nice piece of the Mamelukes instead, maybe even as they're allied to the Ottomans.

 

[Gratak]

You mean in history right? Because in the game, with Hejaz being independent it's more likely that they'll carve themselves a nice piece of the Mamelukes instead, maybe even as they're allied to the Ottomans.

I thing he was assuming that Hejaz would be changed to be a vassal of the Mamluks. And a player might manage to steel that vassal in the end by fully annexing the Mamluks. But the AI would never (or like 0.01% chance) manage this.

 

[Rider_of_Doom]

Hejaz should be a march under the rule of the Mamluks at the game start together with an event like the Burgundian Succession Crisis. If the Mamluks getting destroyed by another power, it could fire, and Hejaz could send an offer to the nation, which beaten up the Mamluks could, if they accept Hejaz as a subject or let them as a subject of the Mamluks. As third option there could be "declare war for indepence".

 

[Shadoon4]

What's weird I find is that the conquer Egypt mission for the Ottomans adds targets for the area around Mecca as is (I think Mecca, Medina, Jeddah, and a couple other provinces). If the Hejaz isn't part of Egypt/Mamluks then why is this the case?

 

[DanubianCossak]

But isn't this behaviour exactly what a vassal/march would do in game?
Hejaz is a march/vassal of the Mamelukes > Ottomans fully annex the Mamelukes > Hejaz becomes a march/vassal of the Ottomans.

Nope because Mamlukes would annex Hedjaz way before Ottomans ever could conquer them.

 

[Chamboozer]

So, am I correct when I say when the Ottomans utterly crushed the Mamluks the sharifs of Mecca had to recognize the Sultan of the Ottoman Empire as Caliph?

Yes - but not Caliph, rather Khadim al-Haramayn (Servant of the Two Holy Places). The Caliphate was insignificant during this time period, the greatest prestige for a Muslim dynasty was being the protector of the pilgrimage route.

But yes, the Ottomans never had to send any force to the Hejaz, ruling Egypt made them subservient by default.

 

[Yxklyx]

Nope because Mamlukes would annex Hedjaz way before Ottomans ever could conquer them.

Well not if they are a March.

 

[Bouchart]

I'm not sure I'd make Hejaz a subject of the Mamluks but there are some possible alternatives that might be worth considering:

-Hejaz starts guaranteed by Mamluks with military access. Maybe Transfer Trade Power?
-An event/mission that could make them a subject (like with Iberian Wedding, except a vassal/march and not PU)
-Historical Friends (?)

 

[durbal]

Transfer trade power should at least exist at game start. This would also give the Mamluks a bigger footing to vassalize Hejaz.