Why is half of Germania "unoccupied"?
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Scandinavia is filled with roman artifacts, actualy from a rich bronze age finds to a much poorer and daft celtic iron age period the roman iron age you again see a boost of finds. Been connected to auxiliary service in the roman armies.
Finding Places of Roman objects in the free Germania. The map is from 1951, many new finding should be added, but the pattern would most likely be the same. They are scattered all over Germania, there are not especially many finds near the border. There are some areas, where the finds are dense, other areas are more or less empty of finds. The Roman objects can be from the Celtic Iron Age or Roman Iron Age, but the vast majority is most likely from the Roman Iron Age.
It appears that West Jylland, Himmerland, Schleswig-Holstein, northern Holland and Scania are rather empty of Roman finds. In contrast, there are many findings in East Jylland, the Danish islands, Bornholm, Øland and Gotland. Also in Norway, Västergötland and Östergötland have been found objects of Roman origin.
We can believe that many of the Roman objects are brought home by younger sons of noble families, who have been in Roman military service.
So we can conclude from the areas with dense finds and areas more or less empty of finds that some Germanic tribes had close ties to the Roman Empire, while others must have had a cooler relationship with the empire.
Offcorse the further you are away from the reporter in the newspaper of course you will have less mention. With the exception off the Cimbri as the romans had great interest in them for obvious reasons.
I don't see how that's related to the credibility and amount of written sources. Germania Magna started right at the Roman border, while Scandinavia did not. Obviously there's a reason why it's called Roman iron age, as the Romans were now the nearby civilisation with the high-value trade goods.Scandinavia is filled with roman artifacts, actualy from a rich bronze age finds to a much poorer and daft celtic iron age period the roman iron age you again see a boost of finds. Been connected to auxiliary service in the roman armies.
Finding Places of Roman objects in the free Germania. The map is from 1951, many new finding should be added, but the pattern would most likely be the same. They are scattered all over Germania, there are not especially many finds near the border. There are some areas, where the finds are dense, other areas are more or less empty of finds. The Roman objects can be from the Celtic Iron Age or Roman Iron Age, but the vast majority is most likely from the Roman Iron Age.
It appears that West Jylland, Himmerland, Schleswig-Holstein, northern Holland and Scania are rather empty of Roman finds. In contrast, there are many findings in East Jylland, the Danish islands, Bornholm, Øland and Gotland. Also in Norway, Västergötland and Östergötland have been found objects of Roman origin.
Offcorse the further you are away from the reporter in the newspaper of course you will have less mention. With the exception off the Cimbri as the romans had great interest in them for obvious reasons.
That's your hypothesis. I don't deny that some might have spread like that, but trade played an important and vital role, too. Amber was still something the Romans wanted and the Pommeranian coast was famous for it.
Furthermore, there were quite many Celtic artifacts in the Germanic zones, so do you explain those with 'auxilaries' alone, too?
Was not only the border areas that was mentioned either. For example Tacitus on the swedes:
"Next come the states of the Suiones, right out in the sea. They are powerful not only in arms and men but also in fleets. The shape of their ships differs from the normal in having a prow at each end, so that they are always facing the right way to put in to shore. They do not propel them with sails, nor do they fasten a row of oars to the sides. The rowlocks are movable, as one finds them on some river craft, and can be reversed, as circumstances require, for rowing in either direction. Wealth, too, is held in high honour; and so a single monarch rules, with no restrictions on his power and with an unquestioned claim to obedience. Arms are not, as in the rest of Germany, allowed to all and sundry, but are kept in charge of a custodian - who in fact is a slave. There are two reasons for this control of weapons: the sea makes sudden invasion impossible, and idle crowds of armed men easily get into mischief. As for not putting any noble or freeman, or even a freedman, in charge of the arms - that is a part of royal policy."
They got a more detailed description than most tribes even if they are furthest away.
"Next come the states of the Suiones, right out in the sea. They are powerful not only in arms and men but also in fleets. The shape of their ships differs from the normal in having a prow at each end, so that they are always facing the right way to put in to shore. They do not propel them with sails, nor do they fasten a row of oars to the sides. The rowlocks are movable, as one finds them on some river craft, and can be reversed, as circumstances require, for rowing in either direction. Wealth, too, is held in high honour; and so a single monarch rules, with no restrictions on his power and with an unquestioned claim to obedience. Arms are not, as in the rest of Germany, allowed to all and sundry, but are kept in charge of a custodian - who in fact is a slave. There are two reasons for this control of weapons: the sea makes sudden invasion impossible, and idle crowds of armed men easily get into mischief. As for not putting any noble or freeman, or even a freedman, in charge of the arms - that is a part of royal policy."
They got a more detailed description than most tribes even if they are furthest away.
Tacitus picked some extraordinary tribes, and when there was some interesting hearsay he'd take that into account, too. That doesn't imply they had more and also more reliable information for a region.
If you compare the mention of the swedes with bordering rome tribes i see them no weaker in mention. Actually by description seem more powerful that most tribes mentioned. The Sitones who border the suiones get the same description except that the ruling sex is a woman. Of course shocking for romans who treat their women differently.
The name Swedes didn't exist back then, so I guess you mean the Suiones. Reading the rest, I advise you to read the whole Germania, as there are several tribes who get treated in a lengthy passage. There's also the thing that many researchers assume that Tacitus had a narrative he followed. There's also a difference between writing about a region quite some Romans knew about and a far, remote area. Tacitus could've made up those stories or based them on some hearsay in order to entertain his readers.
Suiones is for the origin of the Svea-rige/Sverige(sweden on english) as Dani is for Danes.
If not for the swedes winning over the goths sweden might be named Gøtaland instead.
Svea Yellow, Gøtar Blue. Mediveal times.
Even the "mighty" Suebi have mostly a description on their hair:
"We must now speak of the Suebi, who do not, like the Chatti or the Tencteri, constitute a single nation. They occupy more than half Germany, and are divided into a number of separate tribes under different names, though all are called by the generic title of 'Suebi'. It is a special characteristic of this nation to comb the hair sideways and tie it in a knot. This distinguishes the Suebi from the rest of the Germans, and, among the Suebi, distinguishes the freeman from the slave. Individual men of other tribes adopt the same fashion, either because they are related in some way to the Suebi, or merely because the imitative instinct is so strong in human beings; but even these few abandon it when they are no longer young. The Suebi keep it up till they are gray- headed; the hair is twisted back so that it stands erect, and is often knotted on the very crown of the head. The chiefs use an even more elaborate style. But this concern about their personal appearance is altogether innocent. These are no lovelocks to entice women to accept their advances. Their elaborate coiffure is intended to give them greater height, so as to look more terrifying to their foes when they are about to go into battle."
The "mighty" Marcomenni also have quite an small description:
"Close behind the Marcomanni and Quadi are the Marsigni, Cotini, Osi, and Buri. Of these, the Marsigni and Buri are exactly like the Suebi in language and mode of life. The Cotini and the Osi are not Germans: that is proved by their languages, Celtic in the one case, Pannonian in the other, and also by the fact that they submit to paying tribute. "
Famus Cherusci seem a bit broken:
"On the flank of the Chauci and the Chatti, the Cherusci have been left free from attack to enjoy a prolonged peace, too secure and enervating - a pleasant but perilous indulgence among powerful aggressors, where there can be no true peace. When force decides everything, forbearance and righteousness are qualities attributed only to the strong; and so the Cherusci, once known as 'good, honest people', now hear themselves called lazy fools, while the luck of the victorious Chatti passes for profound wisdom. The fall of the Cherusci involved also the neighbouring tribe of the Fosi, who played second fiddle to them in prosperity but get an equal share of their adversity."
Cimbri, from scandinavia far from roman borders offcorse we know migrated south:
"In the same corner of Germany, nearest to the open sea, dwell the Cimbri, a name mighty in history, though now they are only a little state. Widespread traces of their ancient fame may still be seen: huge encampments on both sides of the Rhine, by their enormous circuit, still give a measure of the mass and man-power of the nation and demonstrate the historical truth of that great exodus."
Further mentions:
"The Angrivarii and Chamavi have a common frontier on one side with the Dulgubnii, Chasuarii, and other tribes of no special fame, while on the north-west they are succeeded by the Frisii, who comprise a larger section and a smaller section, called respectively the Greater and the Lesser Frisii. Both sections have the Rhine as a frontier right down to the Ocean, and their settlements also extend round vast lagoons, which have been sailed by Roman fleets. We have even ventured upon the Northern Ocean itself, and rumour has it that there are Pillars of Hercules in the far north. It may be that Hercules did go there; or perhaps it is only that we by common consent ascribe any remarkable achievement in any place to his famous name. Drusus Germanicus did not lack the courage of the explorer, but Ocean forbade further research into its own secrets or those of Hercules. Since then no one has attempted it. It has been judged more pious and reverent to believe in the alleged exploits of gods than to establish the true facts."
Can go on but i find the swedes mentioned no weaker than other germanic tribes.
https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html
The name "Swedes" came up far, far later than the period we are talking about. It'd be like calling the Marcomanni Bavarians or something there like.Suiones is for the origin of the Svea-rige/Sverige(sweden on english) as Dani is for Danes.
If not for the swedes winning over the goths sweden might be named Gøtaland instead.
Svea Yellow, Gøtar Blue. Mediveal times.
Even the "mighty" Suebi have mostly a description on their hair:
"We must now speak of the Suebi, who do not, like the Chatti or the Tencteri, constitute a single nation. They occupy more than half Germany, and are divided into a number of separate tribes under different names, though all are called by the generic title of 'Suebi'. It is a special characteristic of this nation to comb the hair sideways and tie it in a knot. This distinguishes the Suebi from the rest of the Germans, and, among the Suebi, distinguishes the freeman from the slave. Individual men of other tribes adopt the same fashion, either because they are related in some way to the Suebi, or merely because the imitative instinct is so strong in human beings; but even these few abandon it when they are no longer young. The Suebi keep it up till they are gray- headed; the hair is twisted back so that it stands erect, and is often knotted on the very crown of the head. The chiefs use an even more elaborate style. But this concern about their personal appearance is altogether innocent. These are no lovelocks to entice women to accept their advances. Their elaborate coiffure is intended to give them greater height, so as to look more terrifying to their foes when they are about to go into battle."
The "mighty" Marcomenni also have quite an small description:
"Close behind the Marcomanni and Quadi are the Marsigni, Cotini, Osi, and Buri. Of these, the Marsigni and Buri are exactly like the Suebi in language and mode of life. The Cotini and the Osi are not Germans: that is proved by their languages, Celtic in the one case, Pannonian in the other, and also by the fact that they submit to paying tribute. "
Famus Cherusci seem a bit broken:
"On the flank of the Chauci and the Chatti, the Cherusci have been left free from attack to enjoy a prolonged peace, too secure and enervating - a pleasant but perilous indulgence among powerful aggressors, where there can be no true peace. When force decides everything, forbearance and righteousness are qualities attributed only to the strong; and so the Cherusci, once known as 'good, honest people', now hear themselves called lazy fools, while the luck of the victorious Chatti passes for profound wisdom. The fall of the Cherusci involved also the neighbouring tribe of the Fosi, who played second fiddle to them in prosperity but get an equal share of their adversity."
Cimbri, from scandinavia far from roman borders offcorse we know migrated south:
"In the same corner of Germany, nearest to the open sea, dwell the Cimbri, a name mighty in history, though now they are only a little state. Widespread traces of their ancient fame may still be seen: huge encampments on both sides of the Rhine, by their enormous circuit, still give a measure of the mass and man-power of the nation and demonstrate the historical truth of that great exodus."
Further mentions:
"The Angrivarii and Chamavi have a common frontier on one side with the Dulgubnii, Chasuarii, and other tribes of no special fame, while on the north-west they are succeeded by the Frisii, who comprise a larger section and a smaller section, called respectively the Greater and the Lesser Frisii. Both sections have the Rhine as a frontier right down to the Ocean, and their settlements also extend round vast lagoons, which have been sailed by Roman fleets. We have even ventured upon the Northern Ocean itself, and rumour has it that there are Pillars of Hercules in the far north. It may be that Hercules did go there; or perhaps it is only that we by common consent ascribe any remarkable achievement in any place to his famous name. Drusus Germanicus did not lack the courage of the explorer, but Ocean forbade further research into its own secrets or those of Hercules. Since then no one has attempted it. It has been judged more pious and reverent to believe in the alleged exploits of gods than to establish the true facts."
Can go on but i find the swedes mentioned no weaker than other germanic tribes.
https://facultystaff.richmond.edu/~wstevens/history331texts/barbarians.html
Like I've already mentioned several times, Tacitus wrote about interesting stuff. Tacitus is also only one source, and it's not really that surprising that he'd bash the Cheruskians after Varus lost a few men there
. But it's a matter of fact that the inhabitants of Germania were far more important for the Romans and had far stronger interaction with them. The people of the southern Baltic also had strong trade interactions with the Romans (amber route). I haven't and don't say that the Suiones were as weak as a kitten.
The name "Swedes" came up far, far later than the period we are talking about. It'd be like calling the Marcomanni Bavarians or something there like.
Like I've already mentioned several times, Tacitus wrote about interesting stuff. Tacitus is also only one source, and it's not really that surprising that he'd bash the Cheruskians after Varus lost a few men there
But it's a matter of fact that the inhabitants of Germania were far more important for the Romans and had far stronger interaction with them. The people of the southern Baltic also had strong trade interactions with the Romans (amber route). I haven't and don't say that the Suiones were as weak as a kitten.
No you did not say Suiones were as weak as a kitten but i think you would not even have them/scandinavia except Jutland on the map. Right?
The closer you are to bordering the romans it is of course logical you get more important for the romans. If the romans conquered Germania as they nearly did. Scandinavia would be the next border. Thanks to Arminius however we never know that scenario.
Edit:
Unrelated but first time a mighty nation bordered Scandinavia if some are interested: Charlemagne:
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I talked about the peninsula not about Jütland. Jütland was probably the homeland of the Cimbri and Teutons, so there's their importance. Sweden and Norway are another story, yes, I don't think that it should be filled according to the more modern divisions of the 6th century (Rogaland, Göterland, ...).No you did not say Suiones were as weak as a kitten but i think you would not even have them/scandinavia except Jutland on the map. Right?
The closer you are to bordering the romans it is of course logical you get more important for the romans. If the romans conquered Germania as they nearly did. Scandinavia would be the next border. Thanks to Arminius however we never know that scenario.
Edit:
Unrelated but first time a mighty nation bordered Scandinavia if some are interested: Charlemagne:
Well i am glad they are, and i would have no problem seeing nations added to central Germany or the netherlands. But just hope it is done as accurate as possible. The more the merrier i say. Would even like some more land to the north. Just so it is possible to expand there if you so wish. Playing as the Suiones or Rugi at present must feel a bit claustrophobic with that border at your back.
Well Germanic history is kinda complex. The best early map depicting Germanic tribes in modern Germany is this map in my opinion. There are the Neckarsuebi in the south west. They were Germanics people loyal to Rome settled by Tiberius to protect the east of the rhine. They were also Suebi looting this Roman province. You are right about Bavaria though this area become just germanized in the migration period. So the expansion of Germanic people to what is known today as Southern Germany was hugely influenced by external factors. Ironically the expansion was mostly possible thanks to the help by the Romans.
P.S I think the best the devs can do is take the spread of Jastorf culture and apply the tribes from the mentioned map to the area.
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I don't really value that map, as we know that the Marcomanni and Quadi came from the Suebian territory and that the Hermunduri migrated a bit to the south. The map also depicts the Guthones as living along the sea, although Tacitus explicitly mentions that they are seperated by the Rugians and Lemovians from the sea. There are some other things there that we know weren't really the situation earlier on, but I don't want to point out all of them.
The Harpstedt-Nienburger culture is proto-Germanic, too. Only a few hypothised that there were some non-Indo-Europeans left at that time, but most of the arguments raised in favour of the Nordwestblock have been debunked shortly afterwards.
Wellt the map is showing the situation 50 AD. So you could put the Marcomanni and Quadi in the Main area I guess but I'm not sure if the Jastorf culture expanded up to the southern Main area. At some point Germanic people expanded to this area before Christ for sure though. I suspect the simple answer is we don't know when that happened in this time but as all the tribes occurred much later than 300 AD you could put them there but in Northern Hesse to show the expansion.
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Just a short reply, as I grow weary to repeat my arguments from here https://forum.paradoxplaza.com/foru...-the-boii-the-vindelici-and-germania.1134917/ :
- Jastorf extended as far south as modern Saxony is.
- The area between the Main and Danube wasn't inhabited by a significant German population until much, much later. In fact, it was inhabited by Celts up to the second half of the 1st century BC.
Well I said this because the Marcomanni and Quadi moved from the main area because of the Drusus campaign. So there the expansion to the Main must have begun before that.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Druso_in_Germania_per_Wikipedia.JPG
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cc/Druso_in_Germania_per_Wikipedia.JPG
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That's an outdated view, as there's no archeological evidence for a significant Germanic population there. The written sources aren't clear, either.
According to the German Wikipedia:
Florus, Epitoma de Tito Livio bellorum omnium annorum DCC libri duo 2, 30, 23.
There is no German report saying there not from there.
English Wikipedia:
Florus, Epitoma de Tito Livio bellorum omnium annorum DCC libri duo 2, 30, 23.
There is no German report saying there not from there.
English Wikipedia:
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Wikipedia isn't really the most reliable and most up-to date source. Florus's account never mentions that the Marcomanni lived around the Main area. He only mentions that Drusus created a huge pile of spoils. No river there:
I can link you the German source here and in any case you can scroll down to the maps:
https://www.academia.edu/10698491/Zwei_Beispiele_des_Beharrungsvermögens_in_den_Eisenzeitinterpretationen_Die_Oppida_und_die_Markomannen