Why is German industry so much more powerful than allied industry?

[Beagá]

Short version: Germany industry is very strong because that is needed to build a game around.

What should be questioned instead is if the decision to stick with the 1936-48 timeframe isn´t simply obsolete. I would be ok if the game was overall more compact but playable up to 1965-70.

But at the very least don´t put WC as achievement. If that is placed the game is screwed and destined to be flooded with "game is broken" threads.

 

[GermanPower]

I take no issue with Germany over taking the United States. I more am curious how the US let that happen. I assume it was because of the Ai that it ended up that way. Anyone arguing that the US production capabilities should be beaten by German if this were to happen in real life is foolish and misinformed. If you look at post war economics the Untied States GDP is double that of the Soviets the entire period. It's never even close. As that doesn't relate to GDP production what it does show is the size of the economy and the aka civilian factories. If you were to combine the Soviets with a group of Nations from France to all of the Warsaw Pact, Japan, Spain, a bunch of other countries you'll find the US to be as large or larger in fact for a variety of reasons. The US is currently rivaling the entire EU which only recently overtook the US in size. My point being with all this is the US is the largest economy in the world by a factor of nations. Only the British seem to have any real economic contention with the US. IF one were to even look at factory numbers the US is again far and away with the lead even with German resurgence. Statistic after statistic has the US in the lead. From Oil production to Steel, to anything really. And so with all this taken into consideration.....

I find it highly unlikely a Germany without Britain and the Soviets can rival a properly ran US economy. I assume it was because of the Ai being a moron that the US industrial might was a joke due to AI leadership for a crucial period in the US timeframe. It's also important to remember US production doesn't start until 1942ish..doesn't really full swing into gear. While Soviet Production had been going strong since 33 or maybe a few years after that. They have a massive lead as does Germany. The US virtually over night went from a civilian economy to a military one. It'd be like Germany in 33 turning 100,000 tanks in two or threeish years (That's never gonnna happen in a million years. That'd be lucky to produce 20,000.) The height of US production wasn't fully seen nor was it in the following years. Now if you do want a idea of what a fully geared US production looks at navy. You want to gear towards Navy. Since the turn of the century the US had focused on its Navy more then any other branch and had a healthy naval industry. Going off that within the span of 10 years or so it produced roughly 40 or more Aircraft carriers. The only one even able to somewhat compete was the Royal Navy and even they lacked and fell far behind the US in that aspect. To me this tells me how much of a advantage the US had over every other nation production wise. It was capable of out producing the world with the exclusion of Britain.

Taking into consideration all these facts and all the realities of actually using occupied areas for production its hard for me to agree with this odd consensus everyone has seem to come too. There's so many omissions in the Oh well they control all this land. The US has all that land and all that resources and more? And not only that you are including the UK who is generally considered the third best industrialist behind Germany and the US. So what you have is Germany+Soviets versus US+Britian. The US is far superior to the Soviets in production and Britain is at least capable of what Germany is and 400% more capable on the Sea. So why would you assume that Germany would have a 20% larger production capability because it now controls the Soviets? That's false and totally outta reality.

Now. The reason for that happening in the game is because Daniel is a very good player. Daniel knew what he was doing and the AI preformed poorly against someone of such skill so to me it makes sense why it happened like that...but if it was to real life it's total bonkers. Which isn't a bad thing. Thats the name of the game. Its not strict and boxed. It's a good thing in the end for me even its totally unreal to real life. Because the game isn't about simulating World War 2 mission by mission it's about building the best nation you can. And if you happen to be the worlds best HOI4 player you are most likely going to kick the shit outta the US and Britain. So to finish off it makes sense..but what wouldn't make sense if is players of equal skills controlled the US and Germany and Germany naturally was able to get such a lead on the British and American block..that's total non-sense at that stage. Anyways thats what I think. Agree...Disagree. Merica's Eagle will still be screaming.

 

[Secret Master]

This thread will remain civil and there will be no more posts with profanity that attack members of the community and their intelligence. Otherwise, I will both delete posts and kill the thread.

 

[Praetonia]

Short version: Germany industry is very strong because that is needed to build a game around.

What should be questioned instead is if the decision to stick with the 1936-48 timeframe isn´t simply obsolete. I would be ok if the game was overall more compact but playable up to 1965-70.

But at the very least don´t put WC as achievement. If that is placed the game is screwed and destined to be flooded with "game is broken" threads.

Hard to model that world realistically with the HoI engine. Including WWI in the scope by default would make more sense but probably be too much work for the additional interest it would generate.

WWIII immediately after WWII can be modelled but that has been in previous games.

 

[Noctoras]

Short version: Germany industry is very strong because that is needed to build a game around.

What should be questioned instead is if the decision to stick with the 1936-48 timeframe isn´t simply obsolete. I would be ok if the game was overall more compact but playable up to 1965-70.

But at the very least don´t put WC as achievement. If that is placed the game is screwed and destined to be flooded with "game is broken" threads.

I might actually wait with buying the game until I find out, if it does indeed have the sandbox elements desired. If some proposals make it into the game, the game might be unwinnable other than with the US for a good average player and that's not really the kind of game I am looking for. Will have to wait and see for the first feedback round.

I want to be able to conquer the world with Italy, if I am a good player ... just make it a bit sandboxy. And I agree with the proposal of a wider timeframe, but I realise that's not going to happen

 

[Axe99]

I might actually wait with buying the game until I find out, if it does indeed have the sandbox elements desired. If some proposals make it into the game, the game might be unwinnable other than with the US for a good average player and that's not really the kind of game I am looking for. Will have to wait and see for the first feedback round.

What do you mean by "unwinnable" here?

 

[GermanPower]

I might actually wait with buying the game until I find out, if it does indeed have the sandbox elements desired. If some proposals make it into the game, the game might be unwinnable other than with the US for a good average player and that's not really the kind of game I am looking for. Will have to wait and see for the first feedback round.

I want to be able to conquer the world with Italy, if I am a good player ... just make it a bit sandboxy. And I agree with the proposal of a wider timeframe, but I realise that's not going to happen

I'm sure that'll be possible against the AI. The reality is though this isn't Europa. You have to accept that. Starting nations matter. Secondly being Germany doesn't mean auto-loose there are lots of choices to win. You can do virtually anything. My whole post simply was that real life it'd never make sense Germany to overproduce the US by a figure of 2. I can see them on level ground but a factor of 2 is just bonkers.

 

[Sabotage13]

Short version: Germany industry is very strong because that is needed to build a game around.

I don't think German industry is really the problem here. The real problem seems to be that conquers can essentially rely on occupied territory for most of their industrial output, which seems to create a snowball effect of UberGermany once they've conquered most of continental Europe.

 

[GermanPower]

I don't think German industry is really the problem here. The real problem seems to be that conquers can essentially rely on occupied territory for most of their industrial output, which seems to create a snowball effect of UberGermany once they've conquered most of continental Europe.

Industry comes from the heartland. I think the benefit is resources that enable Germany to be capable of massive production. A huge issue in German industry was tied up resources and lack of said resources.

At some point territorial conquest becomes a damper not a positive thing. Can you imagine dealing with the whole of the Soviet Union in open revolt? It'd be like performing 100 Vietnams. Not that it couldn't be squashed. It's just there are natural limiters in size and that it isn't all benefit like it seemed in the WWW. There should be issues and growing pains. Not just I can build all the industry!

 

[shri]

A lot of reasons why German Industry was historically smaller had to do with resources, for eg: In 1913, Germany had somewhere around 67% or so of the USA's per capita industrialisation and in 1939 it had actually slipped to less than 60%.
Why? more to do with the drastic fall due to the War, Depression and Versailles resulting in loss of "exports" and subsequent "belt-tightening".

If the Resources are available, the German Economy could have expanded, the proof that they could have is in the 1960s and 1970s, when West Germany surpassed first France and then UK and reached about 75% of the USA's per capita levels and has more or less maintained that position till date despite an extremely costly unification in the 1990s. All this while being on the "Gold Standard".

Again, historical data tells us that in the 1500s and pre-30 year War, the German states had higher per-capita income than the UK, the 30 year War and subsequent Industrialisation in the UK changed all that and made England twice as rich as Germany in the 1850s (as a whole and in per-capita terms), but by 1913, Germany had surpassed the UK though in per-capita terms it was still only 80% of the UK. That is a phenomenal growth curve for an economy on the "Gold Standard".

If and a BIG IF, Germany wins against the USSR and creates a puppet state on the A-A line as it envisaged in various memorandum, it would have become an Industrial Giant, the Oil Fields of the Caucasus, the Minerals in the Donetsk basin, etc will make them the premier Industrial Power of the World at par with the USA.

 

[Secret Master]

If and a BIG IF, Germany wins against the USSR and creates a puppet state on the A-A line as it envisaged in various memorandum, it would have become an Industrial Giant, the Oil Fields of the Caucasus, the Minerals in the Donetsk basin, etc will make them the premier Industrial Power of the World at par with the USA.

It would help, but from the perspective of fighting a war, these gains might be neutralized by the cost of holding that territory. A puppet state would still need military support from Germany.

Actually, your point about German economics in the 60s and 70s reminds me that the entire project of WWII was stupid. A peaceful Germany with access to resources on the world market should be able to continue to grow economically without conquering huge swaths of land.

It even works in HOI3.

 

[shri]

Actually, your point about German economics in the 60s and 70s reminds me that the entire project of WWII was stupid. A peaceful Germany with access to resources on the world market should be able to continue to grow economically without conquering huge swaths of land.

It even works in HOI3.

Ah! If only we have 20-20 hindsight! many things become a cakewalk.

BTW, - does it work in HOI3??? Isn't the BBB (Big Bad Bear) programmed to attack in 1942?.
I tried once, without attacking Russia and they did attack in October 1942 or something.

BTW, Niall Ferguson wrote a book stating that- something like the modern EU would have been formed if the UK had stayed out of WW1 and Germany won in 1914/1915, as it would have if the UK were neutral.
Again 20-20 hindsight says, had Germany stayed out of WW1, who knows what would have happened.

 

[amalric de g.]

It would help, but from the perspective of fighting a war, these gains might be neutralized by the cost of holding that territory. A puppet state would still need military support from Germany.

Actually, your point about German economics in the 60s and 70s reminds me that the entire project of WWII was stupid. A peaceful Germany with access to resources on the world market should be able to continue to grow economically without conquering huge swaths of land.

It even works in HOI3.

Well spoken, but you have to look on the historical context. The UK and France denied Germany the markets and the resources, they kept all for themselves. So Germany had two choices, accept the status quo, or force the opening of the markets or conquer new markets.

The US was from 1924 until 1929 the biggest trading partner of germany, but after 1929 all went south and trading with China, the SU and the Balkan States was not enough to sustain the german industry or let it grow.

The Weimarer Republic was not able to solve the problems, the big crash in 1929, no markets for german goods, mass unemployment, bankruptcy of the farmers etc. pp. The people lost their faith in the young democracy.
The nazis used this oportunity for their plan to grab the power and dream of building their new world order. Even the german capitalist believed this nonsense and helped them.

The plan was pure idiotic, as WW I confirmed allready.

Ingame it´s a total different story, in one of my first games i try out a peacefull germany and wait stoically until some other country throws the first stone.

 

[Secret Master]

Ah! If only we have 20-20 hindsight! many things become a cakewalk.

BTW, - does it work in HOI3??? Isn't the BBB (Big Bad Bear) programmed to attack in 1942?.
I tried once, without attacking Russia and they did attack in October 1942 or something.

Many misconceptions about HOI3. One of them is that either the Soviets or Britain will attack Germany automatically on certain dates.

Actually, they will attack only if game rules allow them to do so. If Germany's threat is too low compared to neutrality, then no one gets to attack Germany. The catch is that rearming Germany does generate threat, so if you have built up a decent military, it might tip the threat/neutrality scales.

I explore this in more detail here: http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum...rmany-avoiding-war-for-fun-and-profit.613700/

That was under some slightly older rules, but the only changes since 2012 mean that there is no ticking down of Britain's neutrality, so as long as you don't spam military stuff to raise your threat as Germany (or do anything else to generate threat, like fire decisions), then you can have a nice, peaceful game.

I should also point out that Britain's AI will also attack the Soviets if they get out of hand before Germany is too big of a threat, so why not sit back and wait for Stalin to make a mistake? :snicker:

Well spoken, but you have to look on the historical context. The UK and France denied Germany the markets and the resources, they kept all for themselves. So Germany had two choices, accept the status quo, or force the opening of the markets or conquer new markets.

The US was from 1924 until 1929 the biggest trading partner of germany, but after 1929 all went south and trading with China, the SU and the Balkan States was not enough to sustain the german industry or let it grow.

Yes, I know that France and Britain were adopting trade policies that kind of screwed Germany. With some historical changes (like no tariff walls in the wake of the Depression), Germany might have no pressing need to acquire new resources by continuing trade with the US.

I would also point out that had anyone been paying attention, they would have realized that the kind of empires Britain and France had were becoming obsolete anyway. Way to go, Nazis, for trying to build a 19th Century overseas empire in the 20th Century and on the Eurasian landmass. You're not playing Vic2, Adolph.

 

[GermanPower]

It would help, but from the perspective of fighting a war, these gains might be neutralized by the cost of holding that territory. A puppet state would still need military support from Germany.

Actually, your point about German economics in the 60s and 70s reminds me that the entire project of WWII was stupid. A peaceful Germany with access to resources on the world market should be able to continue to grow economically without conquering huge swaths of land.

It even works in HOI3.

I find this far better worded then my rambling. I do however see the planning for WWII, looking into the delusion of of a mad man (Mein Kampf) you can see the planning is after death of the charismatic leader of Germany. In the long road the benefits will be massive to Germany. However in the now and here. Its divisive, civil war causing and potentially destructive. The death of the guy holding it together ends the Third Reich.

It was a fantasy land that it would ever be capable of being economically positive in the short time. I find it far likely the end of war means the end of the Third Reich. Win or loose. At least economically. The prosperity ends and a long painful road starts. While alternatively the US becomes a booming state win or draw. I guess that's the downfall of autocracy short term gains, horrid middles and possibly bright future.

My point in all this is simply to say Germany is never going to be in a position that the US was. It's entire system was crumbling at the start of 43. I doubt even with victory that it'd somehow reap rewards in the intimidate future of its economy. It's fascism's communism is the downfall of it economically. It may have ended up very much like the Soviet Union falling apart because of the entire reason it was every successful. Extremism. I however think though German prosperity would come in vast waves and over take the US. I think it was just a 50 year need of development.

And to finish up my real point relating to the game. It explains very much why Germany could only compete with the US and never overtake no matter the gains of land. The entire plan of the German Reich was never to get rewards for the now but to look towards the future (Excluding the obvious needs)

 

[lwarmonger]

If and a BIG IF, Germany wins against the USSR and creates a puppet state on the A-A line as it envisaged in various memorandum, it would have become an Industrial Giant, the Oil Fields of the Caucasus, the Minerals in the Donetsk basin, etc will make them the premier Industrial Power of the World at par with the USA.

Two issues. First, Germany's population is still much smaller than that of the US (and will probably shrink even further than in real life relatively speaking, as large numbers of refugees from conquered Europe trigger another wave of immigration to the States about 20 years before it happened historically). So wherever they end up in per capita terms still isn't going to get them around the fact that there would be far more Americans than Germans (and the value of the labor you are getting out of conquered people is extremely minimal, especially once you factor in the costs of occupation).

Second, an enormous amount of German focus and energy, instead of being on industrial development, would have to be spent holding together their new empire. 400,000 troops in Norway alone. Yugoslavia. The Soviet Union to the Ural mountains. France. Benelux. However far they ended up conquering in the Middle East and Africa (because lets face it, Europe doesn't really have too much in terms of strategic minerals). To hold the UK is another significant number. That is an enormous commitment of manpower to hold down. Not to mention governmental energy. Then there is the money that would have to be spent propping up inefficient and ineffective puppet governments. Spain. Romania. Italy. After a few decades Germany (like the Soviet Union) would begin to fall behind the US more and more dramatically as it exhausts itself just trying to hold everything together. And eventually it would all collapse.

 

[Junkwisch]

Can't some people tell the differences between Daniel's Germany and real life Germany?

 

[GermanPower]

Can't some people tell the differences between Daniel's Germany and real life Germany?

TRUE! Haha. In the fun of Fascist bashing. It's being lost to the game I see after reading my post again.

My point is only talking about the political/economic ramification in real life. That should guide the game to a degree. However Daniel's Germany was lead by a staunch industrious and facing a incompetent US who didn't know the first thing about Industry! FOOLS! FOOLS! (Talking AI) So it still make sense what happened. My argument isn't that is shouldn't happen. It's sandbox at the end of the day. It's that the real realities should be reflected in the game. Meaning if a good skilled player is on the US the entire time Natural the US and Germany should rival each other. Not have one clearly superior. That's rather our points is that's not how it'd function in real life that many are arguing. In fact the US is in a large advantage in real life. That's the reality and the game should reflect that if a player makes the right moves. But as to what Germany could do is open ended. Its sandbox...I'm more arguing against the people saying oh thats how it should be. When its total bs and the opposite is the reality.

I still think the UK won the game! The only one. (Got the nukes by bug abusing to be fair)

 

[keynes2.0]

Can't some people tell the differences between Daniel's Germany and real life Germany?

Sure. But the issues about power projection are relevant to gameplay. Snowballs are boring.

 

[Sabotage13]

Can't some people tell the differences between Daniel's Germany and real life Germany?

Can't some people tell the difference between discussing game mechanics and discussing real life?