Why is German industry so much more powerful than allied industry?

[joe9594]

Daniel has twice as many factories as the US and UK together. How is this possible? Germany should have a cap way below that and factories in other regions shouldn't be effective enough to achieve that result. I assumed that any non core had a big factory malus that stacked with the occupation laws (as happens with manpower) but it kind of seems like Daniel is getting substantial use out of these foreign factories.
In addition to being a bit silly this feels like a limitation on strategic choice, there should be a real choice between the options rather than one being much better once you have anti partisan forces. A choice out of like 1.5% of the manpower and all of the industry is no choice at all.
Also Daniel doesn't seem to have any substantial partisan forces in the USSR and his supply lines and factory production still look rosy.
Occupying countries should be helpful but it should be much about resources than industry.

 

[adam_grif]

He doesn't have twice the combined factories, I believe the law thing was glitched.

Here is the stats:

http://i.imgur.com/N5WzWqW.jpg

Category / UK (minimum estimate) / USA (minimum estimate) / Germany

Civilian Factory / 101 / 317 / 564
Dockyards / 49 / 79 / 104
Military Factories / 211 / 220 / 605

Totals

418 vs 564
128 vs 104
431 vs 605

The Germans are head overall, but behind in naval, assuming the MINIMUM estimates. They're approximately 20% ahead overall. They are using max exploitation occupation laws, meaning they get all the industry, but none of the manpower basically. He's conquered the USSR, and several other European nations, and is pushing into India. It also doesn't show how many of those factories are currently productive, many may have been damaged by bombing and resistance.

 

[joe9594]

This still seems really high. I think that Germany is getting way too much of the industrial potential of regions it conquers. Even after conquering France and the USSR Germany should need to do several years of build up to match the allied powers (assuming the aren't ramping up industry at the same time). in the late 30s the US and UK had almost 50% of total industrial output together while Germany plus the USSR had less than 30% (and that is assuming the Germans can use soviet industry as efficiently as the Russians could). Apart from those 2 areas Germany really hasn't conquered too many places with any significant industry. I really think that matching allied industry should require a colossal industrial buildup all through Europe over the course of several years.

 

[adam_grif]

I agree that it feels far too high, I assume that the US is lower than historical for balance purposes more than anything and the efficiency of factories in conquered lands needs to be looked at.

 

[CyberianK]

USSR heavy industry should not be underestimated though.

USSR built MORE tanks and more artillery than USA in WW2. Now I agree that a conquered USSR territory by Germany should not be able to produce the same numbers but adding that to the whole of Europe I think its fair that this outproduces the allies. Yes USA industrial power was amazing but sometimes it is exaggerated while neglecting USSR heavy industry.

 

[Opanashc]

USSR heavy industry should not be underestimated though.
USSR built MORE tanks and more artillery than USA in WW2. Now I agree that a conquered USSR territory by Germany should not be able to produce the same numbers but adding that to the whole of Europe I think its fair that this outproduces the allies. Yes USA industrial power was amazing but sometimes it is exaggerated while neglecting USSR heavy industry.

In 1940, USA produced almost 4 times the amount of steel USSR did. That's reality. USSR cut corners in diversity of equipment everywhere it could get away with.

 

[Secret Master]

Yes USA industrial power was amazing but sometimes it is exaggerated while neglecting USSR heavy industry.

In 1940, USA produced almost 4 times the amount of steel USSR did. That's reality. USSR cut corners in diversity of equipment everywhere it could get away with.

Yep.

Do I need to link to historical OOB production tests in HOI3 for the USA? The USA could barely reach her historical production targets in HOI3 with me trying a bunch of tricks. I don't think the USA was exaggerated, and I doubt it will be in HOI4.

 

[afghanrabbit]

In this last WWW video Daniel is building factories in Russia. Also Johan is no longer attacking him by air in mainland Europe so his civilian factories have most likely been repaired along with those damaged in USSR. So I think it's plausible for him to have that many factories. But I also agree it appears the US has been nerfed unless the AI neglected to build up and the player has also chose not to.

 

[adam_grif]

Yep.

Do I need to link to historical OOB production tests in HOI3 for the USA? The USA could barely reach her historical production targets in HOI3 with me trying a bunch of tricks. I don't think the USA was exaggerated, and I doubt it will be in HOI4.

Aircraft production stats are pretty revealing in that the US pulled off double the number of total aircraft despite the USSR outproducing USA significantly in '39 and '40. And even then, the US produced 4x as many bombers of all types (i.e. larger / more production intensive aircraft had an even bigger gap). America outproduced it in light and medium AFVs, although the USSR took the #1 Heavy Tanks production spot easily. Then there were locomotives, trucks and so on. And naval production obviously dwarfed the USSR...

Then there was the fact that LL allowed the soviets to further specialise their production, with a third of the Red Army's truck strength being American shipped, and raw materials including petrochemical products being shipped in large volume to the USSR.

The Americans were beast mode, industrially. The USSR was also very large, but still had nothin' on America in raw industrial terms.

 

[shri]

In HOI3 also, if Bitter peace was achieved by mid-late 1942, Germany grew to be immensely powerful with gargantuan production of aircraft and a considerable naval effort in 1943-44.
So, HOI4 also Bitter peace or its equivalent has been achieved in 1942 and this is one of the main reasons for Dan's immense factories list.

But do remember- Dan himself said in the previous WWW, that his factories are operating at 40% penalty due to resources shortages, plus his factories efficiency are very low in the occupied lands due to the partisan things- "every minute or two, we could see a YELLOW warning pop-up of Factory destroyed in the background of the German player", which means most of the consumer factories are spent in REPAIRS.
Dan also remarked he is not building "TIGERS" due to extremely low Oil and Rubber and this was one of the reasons why SE Asia looks attractive to him.

Another thing is, except Spain, Portugal, Hungary and Bulgaria all other European countries are occupied by him at the "extreme occupation i.e. 0% manpower and max factories".

 

[CyberianK]

The Americans were beast mode, industrially. The USSR was also very large, but still had nothin' on America in raw industrial terms.

I am not doubting that the USA was the largest industrial power in the world. It was and you are right that it was far greater than USSR when combining all war production and they even had other industry going while USSR was focusing all on the immediate war effort to be able to do those numbers that they did.

What I am merely arguing for is what this thread is about that the combined industrial potential of all of Europe plus all of USSR was higher than USA. Because that is basically what is the point in HOI games when Axis succeeds in beating USSR and conquering Eurasia.
Of course it is debatable how much of that industry should be exploitable by game mechanics we can surely discuss this. But the overall industrial potential is larger so its not totally unbelievable whats happening in WWW.

 

[adam_grif]

I am not doubting that the USA was the largest industrial power in the world. It was and you are right that it was far greater than USSR when combining all war production and they even had other industry going while USSR was focusing all on the immediate war effort to be able to do those numbers that they did.

What I am merely arguing for is what this thread is about that the combined industrial potential of all of Europe plus all of USSR was higher than USA. Because that is basically what is the point in HOI games when Axis succeeds in beating USSR and conquering Eurasia.
Of course it is debatable how much of that industry should be exploitable by game mechanics we can surely discuss this. But the overall industrial potential is larger so its not totally unbelievable whats happening in WWW.

Germany, France, Low Countries, Eastern Europe and Russia combined would outproduce in terms of land and air (although it might be closer than you think, since in RL they had basically the same as they did in this game minus the Soviet factories, who themselves didn't match the US even with literal factories being airlifted to the USSR by America and war materials flooding in to help their industry out). In the game currently the occupied industry is combining to be double the United States' potential though, which seems questionable. 1.8x civilian factories, 1.25x dockyards, 3x military factories. It's not that Germany shouldn't be that strong, it's more like the US isn't as industrially competitive as it would have been, definitely in terms of naval. With the UK as a baseline, America only has 60% more naval building capacity, and maybe 5-10% more military industry. They do at least have double the civilian industry, but taken as 'factories overall', the UK seems to have about 3/5 the output of the United States.

I'm hoping that the early game AI was just basically crappy for USA and that if a player had been there from the start it would have had more of an industrial buildup.

 

[Goodis]

Daniel has conquered Sweden, Norway, Finland, France, Switzerland, Chezh, Austria, Netherland, Denmark, Greece, Syria, Sovjet, India, Poland, China(partly) and has harsh treatment everywhere which gives him industry. He almost owns all of Eurasia, two continents. He probably has the resources to rebuild and build new factories, And you wonder why he has more industry than the allies ?

Edit: Don't forget that USA was played by the AI for a long while, and also, Daniel is probably worlds best HoI player. And lastly, how many more continents does one need to conquer as Germany in order to beat the UK and the US? I really fail to see how I will be able to play as good as Daniel and if he is to lose, I won't ever have a chance then playing as Germany vs UK/USA

 

[adam_grif]

Daniel has conquered Sweden, Norway, Finland, France, Switzerland, Chezh, Austria, Netherland, Denmark, Greece, Syria, Sovjet, India, Poland, China(partly) and has harsh treatment everywhere which gives him industry. He almost owns all of Eurasia, two continents. He probably has the resources to rebuild and build new factories, And you wonder why he has more industry than the allies ?

Historical Germany conquered all of that except Sweden, Switzerland, Syria, North India and the back half of the USSR. Only the USSR among those had significant war industry on the scale of major powers. The United States completely dwarfed German war industry, that is, German+French+Polish+Czech+Parts of USSR in history. With the addition of some minors and the remaining USSR (this is an alt history USSR with very reduced industry thanks to a Trotsky coup, keep in mind, with an army so pathetic it collapsed in like a year), it should exceed the US by some margin, but not like 3x the military industry. And as I pointed out, the UK has roughly the same militay industry and 60% of its naval production capacity. The US dwarfed British production in all categories historically. Thus, I conclude that either the US was nerfed for balance (as it usually is in HoI), or the AI did a bad job of building up its industry.

 

[Goodis]

I think that the AI messed up in combination with that Daniel outperformed.

Edit: And then again, he almost owns whole of Eurasia. I'm not comparing American production with Nazi Germany's historical industrial power/output but comparing it to Daniels HoI4 Germany industry.

 

[TheRomanRuler]

Among other reasons, devs say they had to buff Germany to make game interesting. If you would play as allies with Germany being as strong as it was historically, there would be no challenge and you would only be racing on how quickly you can get to Berlin.
Germany (with allies) was fighting 6 years against the world. Not easiest thing to balance in any game.

 

[Denkt]

Harsh conscription laws give huge production penalties.

Germany need alot of conquest to win an eventual showdown with USA, if Germany can not get the needed industry they will lose.

 

[mursolini]

I would go ahead and blame US bad showing on the fact that player wasn`t present from the start.

In almost every HOI game, 1936 production levels are not proportional to 1944-level of production, and intentionally so, as USSR and USA can, and should build up factories, since they come to war later.

 

[Denkt]

Everyone should max out their factories.

 

[joe9594]

USSR built MORE tanks and more artillery than USA in WW2. Now I agree that a conquered USSR territory by Germany should not be able to produce the same numbers but adding that to the whole of Europe I think its fair that this outproduces the allies. Yes USA industrial power was amazing but sometimes it is exaggerated while neglecting USSR heavy industry.

Yeah but remember that in this universe soviet industrial production was pathetic (thus why Germany won so easily).

In this last WWW video Daniel is building factories in Russia. Also Johan is no longer attacking him by air in mainland Europe so his civilian factories have most likely been repaired along with those damaged in USSR. So I think it's plausible for him to have that many factories. But I also agree it appears the US has been nerfed unless the AI neglected to build up and the player has also chose not to.

Yes however the allies were presumably also building factories the whole time too and didnt need to spend loads of time repairing.