Why is Flanders considered de jure part of the HRE?

[User29]

IIRC only independents can swear fealty. Apparently it used to be different in the past.

nah you can always swear fealty to your de jure liege

 

[Thiomay]

... Flamestalker is right: if the Norse had been united, I see no reason for that divergence. I suppose that if Jylland had not been united with Sjaelland, they'd have developed different national cultures, too. The way that divergence is implemented now is IMO a nice incentive for the AI and the players to do stuff that has some historical plausibility but it's also writing history from the perspective of the winners. The devs aren't quite consistent, though, they have given us the chance to rewrite history, e.g. let Pommerian culture survive. If you apply the same logic to the continental Germanic areas, you'd get one Germanic proto-culture that later diverges into Dutch and German. I suppose a separate North German identity might have been grown if Saxony had become independent. Or it might have merged with Dutch. We could have seen 3 cultures emerge or 2 with different borders. In any case, it shouldn't be the inverse of the Norse mechanic, it should be more or less the same.

I disagree I don't think these tribes saw them selves as on culture in 867. Their languages varied more than the Norse(Edit: this is more of an assumption). IMO they unified because the HRE united them and because of the Roman Idea of Germania, but in 867 the HRE is a brand new Idea.

 

[User29]

I disagree I don't think these tribes saw them selves as on culture in 867. Their languages varied more than the Norse(Edit: this is more of an assumption). IMO they unified because the HRE united them and because of the Roman Idea of Germania, but in 867 the HRE is a brand new Idea.

brand new? at the time it was simply a continuation of the original Rome(in theory anyway) it was a new beast entirely but people in the west saw it as the continuation of Rome.

 

[Barsoom]

I disagree I don't think these tribes saw them selves as on culture in 867. Their languages varied more than the Norse(Edit: this is more of an assumption). IMO they unified because the HRE united them and because of the Roman Idea of Germania, but in 867 the HRE is a brand new Idea.

I didn't say they did. But I doubt their views on the differences with their neighbors were very different from those of the Norse and I'm pretty sure they had the same kind of dialect continuum that existed between Norse settlements. There are 3 options: (1) as is (Dutch/German split) - which is anachronistic but works in practice; (2) every county its own "tribal" culture - which I think overestimates cultural differences and totally screws up gameplay; or (3) a Germanic proto-culture - which would work about as well as the Norse does.

 

[Taran14]

I didn't say they did. But I doubt their views on the differences with their neighbors were very different from those of the Norse and I'm pretty sure they had the same kind of dialect continuum that existed between Norse settlements. There are 3 options: (1) as is (Dutch/German split) - which is anachronistic but works in practice; (2) every county its own "tribal" culture - which I think overestimates cultural differences and totally screws up gameplay; or (3) a Germanic proto-culture - which would work about as well as the Norse does.

We could also split up German in High and Low German, and split up Dutch in Frisian, Flemish and Low German. That is not perfect, but I think it would be much more accurate than the current system, and much less hassle than a proto-Germanic culture, which seems more like something out of the Iron Age.

 

[M@ni@c]

nah you can always swear fealty to your de jure liege

How can this be explained in the 1066 start?:

 

[sprucetrap]

The whole "kingdom of Frisia" is nonsense - most of its lands were just ordinary HRE territory. Some count of Holland even was HRE emperor briefly.

They got their kingdom because of the Dutch lobby among the P'dox players

Yeah, except for the historical fact that Frisia existed 350+ years before the HRE was formed, it was totally just HRE territory.

 

[Thiomay]

brand new? at the time it was simply a continuation of the original Rome(in theory anyway) it was a new beast entirely but people in the west saw it as the continuation of Rome.

I meant Germania as a single state is a new Idea not Rome. Before that Germania was just a Roman word for this vague area next to Gaule.

Maybe a Norse Proto culture is comparable to a German one but than it should definitely include what is currently Dutch. It would still not be a consistent world because than the Slavs would still have no Proto culture but 3 separate groups, pretty weird considering that there languages were sill closely related.

 

[Ruwaard]

We could also split up German in High and Low German, and split up Dutch in Frisian, Flemish and Low German. That is not perfect, but I think it would be much more accurate than the current system, and much less hassle than a proto-Germanic culture, which seems more like something out of the Iron Age.

Flemish would be even more anachronistic than Dutch, besides it is too regional, Brabantian and Hollandic would be just as good; IMHO in such a division Low Frankish/Franconian would be better (as in more neutral).

 

[Taran14]

Flemish would be even more anachronistic than Dutch, besides it is too regional, Brabantian and Hollandic would be just as good; IMHO in such a division Low Frankish/Franconian would be better (as in more neutral).

Low Frankish seems good.
It is also somewhat weird that the French are called Frankish, considering the fact that the Franks barely lived in France. Only the rulers were Franks, the population was gallo-roman. I think it would be better to rename Frankish to French.

 

[Thiomay]

brand new? at the time it was simply a continuation of the original Rome(in theory anyway) it was a new beast entirely but people in the west saw it as the continuation of Rome.

I meant Germania as a single state is a new Idea not Rome. Before that Germania was just a Roman word for this vague area next to Gaule.

Maybe a Norse Proto culture is comparable to a German one but than it should definitely include what is currently Dutch. It would still not be a consistent world because than the Slavs would have no Proto culture but 3 separate groups, pretty weird considering that there languages were sill closely related.

I think Norse all shared the sea and cooperated in Raiding and settling so there less isolated. Personally I am annoyed that the HRE is always so stable and nobody even wants independence and I relay don't want to play a blanket "german" Dynasty.

 

[stern]

IIRC only independents can swear fealty. Apparently it used to be different in the past.

I posted implying Flanders would already be independent after power struggles in France; if I remember correctly, in 1066 the french king power is so small that sometimes he accepts your demand for independence without any fight.

That feel when I played countless obsessive games as the republic of Flanders.

 

[AchedTeacher]

The whole "kingdom of Frisia" is nonsense - most of its lands were just ordinary HRE territory. Some count of Holland even was HRE emperor briefly.

They got their kingdom because of the Dutch lobby among the P'dox players

I, as a Dutch person, do not care much for Frisia. Right now Frisia is but a province of the Netherlands, and I never lived in it. If they'd ask me, I'd be okay with deleting it, although it wouldn't solve the Holy Roman Flanders problem, because recently Pdox wants the map to be filled with Kingdoms and Empires on every county. They could add present day Netherlands to Lotharingia and Flanders to West Francia/France, thus making Netherlands de jure HRE and Flanders de jure Francia.

 

[Staal]

Having a kingdom of Frisia was a compromise to give Dutch culture an intermediate goal separate from the Germans and French. My original request was more freedom in creating de facto titles, not a de jure kingdom. For whatever reason the devs thought a de jure kingdom would work better/easier. I would've been happy with creating a Kingdom of Frisia/Holland/what-have-you as a titular holding without any de jure counties.

 

[Sleight of Hand]

I would've been happy with creating a Kingdom of Holland as a titular holding without any de jure counties.

The devs don't really like titular titles (this has been confirmed by a few of them in the past), hence the addition of de jure empires and making previously titular realms (Navarra, Galicia, Nubia, etc.) de jure.

 

[MinscShip]

For reasons just explained to you... A kingdom can't be split between empires. Flanders is DJ part of Frisia, and Frisia is in HRE.

fresia was not part of HRE but part of the france kingdom after karl the great death.... first later they become part of HRE agian...

 

[GothicEmperor]

fresia was not part of HRE but part of the france kingdom after karl the great death.... first later they become part of HRE agian...

Talking about 'France' and the 'HRE' in the late 8th century isn't very historically accurate. Those two things meant something rather different at that time.