Wtrong. There is in the new patch. The game crashes if you mod in a duchy withoutout a kingdom.
But Flanders should be absolutly be in the kingdom of France.
Why is Flanders considered de jure part of the HRE?
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Wtrong. There is in the new patch. The game crashes if you mod in a duchy withoutout a kingdom.
But Flanders should be absolutly be in the kingdom of France.
That would be what we call "a bug". (But I'm also pretty sure it's older than 1.10.)
I'm sure it wasn't. SWMH had provinces withoput a kingdom in 1.09. But since 1.10 this problem seems to exist:
http://forum.paradoxplaza.com/forum/showthread.php?691795-Issues-with-custom-maps-1.10
That is nonsense, Frisians and Dutch are two separate peoples. Dutch would have wanted a Kingdom of the Netherlands. The Kingdom of Frisia was mainly added for historical reasons, it was a very powerful kingdom and the main opponent to the Franks. It is not unlikely that if some person would have controlled all the territories that were once part of it, the kingdom could have been re-created. This game is all about alternate history.The whole "kingdom of Frisia" is nonsense - most of its lands were just ordinary HRE territory. Some count of Holland even was HRE emperor briefly.
They got their kingdom because of the Dutch lobby among the P'dox players
After the Franks defeated the Frisians, Flanders became a part of the Frankish kingdom (which would later become both the Kingdom of France and the HRE) So the problem is mainly that Flanders is a de jure part of two kingdoms (of which one does not exist anymore) And since a title can only be a de jure part of one kingdom, the devs probably included Flanders with Frisia for gameplay reasons, as Flanders is Dutch and Frisia is supposed to be the kingdom for the Dutch culture.
But it would also be perfectly historical to include Flanders with France.
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From a gameplay perspective it'd be better (at least post-1066) as it would stop the Emperor from going to war over provinces in Flanders, which at that point he wouldn't have any real claims on. It's usually impossible for France to win those wars anyway.
Almost. It apparently crashes on the de Jure Kingdom overlay, but it seems only there. BUT that doesn't change that Kingdoms does not need to be in an Empire.
Then it's be better to just keep Frisia out of the HRE. Then it'd solve the problem of the intensely annoying de Jure war while still keeping Frisia intact. If that was a desireable outcome of course.
But Frisia out of the HRE would be absolutly wrong. I don't see what would be the probllem to make Flanders part of de jure France? It was never part of Frisia. And it was mostly part of France.
It is a bit strange that a Kingdom of Frisia is part of the HRE, since Frisia existed already before the HRE did. The HRE did rule over the area in the ck2 timespan, but that would not make it have authority over a kingdom that already existed before that (though I do not know that much about medieval law). Somehow the area should be de jure HRE, but Frisia should not. But I do not think that is possible.
I think a good compromise would be moving Flanders to France and keeping the rest of Frisia as-is.
This is a game, not an UN decree. If duchy is dejure part of kingdom and also dejure part of empire, then said kingdom must be dejure part of said empire.
I could make a bug report for this (so it's a suggestion that the devs can consider) if people are generally agreed with the proposal to move Flanders to France. I'd say it's better from both historical and gameplay perspectives.
I also thing this would be the best solution. If France would be elective... I'm sure the Count of Flanders (Ingame Duke) would get a voice.
Absolutely. In fact, that was one of the reasons I gave when I proposed Burgundy (duchy) be moved to de jure France.
Another solution would be for Flanders and Normandy to form the Kingdom of Neustria, with Normandy being set to drift into the Kingdom of France soon after 1066 in order to enable the anglo-french struggles over it. After all, we do already have Aquitaine and Burgundy in the game, so why not Neustria?
In the 867 start, there should be no dutch culture. I'm dutch, but I'm going to be honest with my history books here. There were no people what we would call Dutch today.
Most of the dutch living below the dutch rhein would be called franks (or lower franconian speakers). These are "German Franks" to be precise and not the "Romance Franks" who live in france proper (paris). All the dutch culture we see should technicaly be renamed "Franconian", and that culture should be larger than is on the map right now. It should contain a fair share of the north of france and the rhein areas in germany (köln) for example.
Now the north of the netherlands above the rhein, should be frisian. And technicaly the area should be filled with little wealthy trading posts and fishing towns...(who all dissapeared when the oceans flooded the lands completely between 800-1200, decimating frisian population and areas).
In the process of the next 400 years starting from aprox 800, german immigrants from Saxony and the Ruhr area in germany started moving enmasse to the netherlands to develop the mirky marshes as endentured servants (as a grant by the emperors of germany). However many germans called "duutsen" by the locals would simply escape their lords lands and set up their own independent free duutsch towns in the protected marshes. (the modern dutch gain their name from these german immigrants, and it is also why were are not the same as flemish who are native.)
So here the north gets mixed Frisian, Franconian and a bit of Saxon culture.
Flanders remained largely franconian due to little immigration but was later influenced heavily to the south from the Romance Franks, turning half of belgium into Wallonians and the north of france into Frankish Romance speakers from Franconian.
Flanders should go into France, it was historicaly most influenced by it and part of West Francia. The Netherlands should go to the HRE, because thats who influenced it the most (and Frisia had more in common with saxons than with French). And even one of our counts became emperor whuuhuu:happy:
Edit:
Frisia as a kingdom?
Ludicrious!
They shouldn't even have provincial status in our own national administration
Most of the dutch living below the dutch rhein would be called franks (or lower franconian speakers). These are "German Franks" to be precise and not the "Romance Franks" who live in france proper (paris). All the dutch culture we see should technicaly be renamed "Franconian", and that culture should be larger than is on the map right now. It should contain a fair share of the north of france and the rhein areas in germany (köln) for example.
Now the north of the netherlands above the rhein, should be frisian. And technicaly the area should be filled with little wealthy trading posts and fishing towns...(who all dissapeared when the oceans flooded the lands completely between 800-1200, decimating frisian population and areas).
In the process of the next 400 years starting from aprox 800, german immigrants from Saxony and the Ruhr area in germany started moving enmasse to the netherlands to develop the mirky marshes as endentured servants (as a grant by the emperors of germany). However many germans called "duutsen" by the locals would simply escape their lords lands and set up their own independent free duutsch towns in the protected marshes. (the modern dutch gain their name from these german immigrants, and it is also why were are not the same as flemish who are native.)
So here the north gets mixed Frisian, Franconian and a bit of Saxon culture.
Flanders remained largely franconian due to little immigration but was later influenced heavily to the south from the Romance Franks, turning half of belgium into Wallonians and the north of france into Frankish Romance speakers from Franconian.
Flanders should go into France, it was historicaly most influenced by it and part of West Francia. The Netherlands should go to the HRE, because thats who influenced it the most (and Frisia had more in common with saxons than with French). And even one of our counts became emperor whuuhuu:happy:
Edit:
Frisia as a kingdom?
Ludicrious!
They shouldn't even have provincial status in our own national administration
I'm not opposed to Flandern in France, at least not in the 1066 start. I'd say keep them in Frisia in 867 and move them over in 1066. Seems like a decent compromise to me.
I'm sure the devs have their (valid) reasons for not including Flanders with France, so I think it would just be a waste of time. An other thing that has to be considered is balance. Won't France get to many territories compared to other kingdoms? Sure, France is supposed to be powerful, but if France can just steamroll every other kingdom it is no fun.
Actually, since Aquitaine was introduced as a de jure kingdom France isn't that big at all.
True. Dutch culture is a very modern invention. Dutch at the time were Franks. The Dutch language is a direct descendant from the Frankish language. And most of the time they considered themselves Germans. That is why the English call them 'Dutch' (from German Deutsch or Dutch Duits). And there were very little to no Franks in France. Only the ruling elite was Frankish and there were some Frankish settlements above the Loire. The population of France were Romanised Gauls, who under Frankish rule evolved into the French. That's why French is a Latin, not a Germanic language. Naming the French culture Frankish is just wrong.In the 867 start, there should be no dutch culture. I'm dutch, but I'm going to be honest with my history books here. There were no people what we would call Dutch today.
Most of the dutch living below the dutch rhein would be called franks (or lower franconian speakers). These are "German Franks" to be precise and not the "Romance Franks" who live in france proper (paris). All the dutch culture we see should technicaly be renamed "Franconian", and that culture should be larger than is on the map right now. It should contain a fair share of the north of france and the rhein areas in germany (köln) for example.
Now the north of the netherlands above the rhein, should be frisian. And technicaly the area should be filled with little wealthy trading posts and fishing towns...(who all dissapeared when the oceans flooded the lands completely between 800-1200, decimating frisian population and areas).
In the process of the next 400 years starting from aprox 800, german immigrants from Saxony and the Ruhr area in germany started moving enmasse to the netherlands to develop the mirky marshes as endentured servants (as a grant by the emperors of germany). However many germans called "duutsen" by the locals would simply escape their lords lands and set up their own independent free duutsch towns in the protected marshes. (the modern dutch gain their name from these german immigrants, and it is also why were are not the same as flemish who are native.)
So here the north gets mixed Frisian, Franconian and a bit of Saxon culture.
Flanders remained largely franconian due to little immigration but was later influenced heavily to the south from the Romance Franks, turning half of belgium into Wallonians and the north of france into Frankish Romance speakers from Franconian.
Flanders should go into France, it was historicaly most influenced by it and part of West Francia. The Netherlands should go to the HRE, because thats who influenced it the most (and Frisia had more in common with saxons than with French). And even one of our counts became emperor whuuhuu:happy:
They shouldn't even have provincial status in our own national administration
About the Frisians: The Frisii were a people living in the region of Frisia, but that area got flooded and they migrated away. 200 years later, the area was resettled by Anglo-Saxons who then became known as the Frisians. That is also why the English and Frisian languages are so similiar. The Frisians Kingdom was very powerful in the Dark Ages. Their famous King Redbad died just as he was planning to wipe out the christian Frankish Kingdom. His son messed up big time (you know what they say about sons of great rulers
) and the Franks managed to defeat the Frisians and spread christianity to North and Central Europe. Imagine how different Europe would have looked like today if Redbad hadn't died just in time!About the Dutch culture: Ideally, it should be split up in a Frisian, Flemish and Low German (or Saxon) culture.
My mother is Frisian, so now I am mad at youEdit:
Frisia as a kingdom?
Ludicrious!
They shouldn't even have provincial status in our own national administration
Independence for Frisia!