Why is everything so... cartoony?
- Thread starter Nuklearius
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I remember reading somewhere that you can indeed disable that.
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Completely agree and am glad I'm not alone.
And "just go play HOI3" is not a fair rebuttal to those being critical of HOI4.
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OK, related to that always funny criticism of adding "manas" into the game: didn't HoI3 already have similar things? I confess that I've never really gotten into the game since I'm a filthy casual and not a serious wargamer, but stuff like IC, leadership, spies etc. felt pretty similar to "mana". Do I spend my leadership mana on research projects, officers, espionage etc.? Or switching around your industrial focuses on a daily basis which hardly seems realistic.
And the entire argument about the map in particular is pretty useless since it will almost certainly be very moddable. Just go look at mods for CK2 for instance. If you want to play with a map that looks like a ye olden times map, you can.
And the entire argument about the map in particular is pretty useless since it will almost certainly be very moddable. Just go look at mods for CK2 for instance. If you want to play with a map that looks like a ye olden times map, you can.
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I'm on the fence about what would have looked better for the game, in regards to sprites/models verses counters debate.
My original reaction to the revelation that NATO counters is not going to be fully supported (yes I know there are the tiny counters, which divulge very little information that will have NATO symbols put in as an afterthought) was one of great disappointment.
However the more I have seen of the game, especially during the World War Wednesday events, the more I am coming to terms with the decision to support sprites/models as the primary zoomed in display for the units.
Miniature soldiers were used in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries by military strategists to plan battle tactics by using the figures to show the locations of real soldiers.
Counters/map symbols were used more commonly during WWII because printed maps were far more common and not many Generals moved around the Battlefield with miniature soldiers in their bags.
Also map symbols can convey far more information about a unit than a miniature could at that time, unless they happened to have the right color and type of miniature to hand in order to represent the hundreds of different units out there.
Another big advantage of the map symbol was the fact that it could easily be copied across to other officers maps at the briefing, and all the counters/miniatures didn't fall off when they decided to fold it up and take it with them.
Now from what I have read so far, the HOI 4 team using a mixture of art and technology, have devised a method that will allow the models to represent even more information than an old style counter could.
By changing the style of uniform, its color or the model of AFV's, ships etc. they can give us a much better representation of the level of technology, its current actins and nationality of the units occupying that space than the old style counters could, in arguably a much more aphetically pleasing way, that also requires far less of a learning curve, thus leading to less confusion, than the old style counters.
When I did my NCO leadership course we used to carry a tin around, with strips of colored ribbon to represent things like rivers and roads. I also had some monopoly houses and hotels in mine. Anything to give you an edge when making models of the objective in order to dispel as much confusion about your plan as possible. The better the model the less confusion, the more successful you were likely to be.
A small tin may not sound like much of an effort to include in your kit, but when you have to carry everything over difficult terrain, for very long distances, every extra gram is a drain on your strength and more pinch from the bergen straps cutting into your shoulders.
The fact that I and many other NCO's were willing to endure this extra discomfort is testimony as to how important it is to make a good easy to understand model to represent your plan.
If at that time I was able to set up a laptop with HOI 4 figures and the beautiful map they have built to go with them on it, you can bet your bottom dollar I would have used it, instead of torn off pieces of paper with NATO symbols on them stuck into molded mud hills.
The bottom line is, you use whatever you have at your disposal, regardless of what used to be the best way to do things, in order to get your plan across to the rest of your men.
Now I think the HOI team have come up with a brave new way of doing just that, and if they think they can convince me to get onboard with it, I'm willing to listen.
History be damned.
My original reaction to the revelation that NATO counters is not going to be fully supported (yes I know there are the tiny counters, which divulge very little information that will have NATO symbols put in as an afterthought) was one of great disappointment.
However the more I have seen of the game, especially during the World War Wednesday events, the more I am coming to terms with the decision to support sprites/models as the primary zoomed in display for the units.
Miniature soldiers were used in the 17th, 18th, and 19th centuries by military strategists to plan battle tactics by using the figures to show the locations of real soldiers.
Counters/map symbols were used more commonly during WWII because printed maps were far more common and not many Generals moved around the Battlefield with miniature soldiers in their bags.
Also map symbols can convey far more information about a unit than a miniature could at that time, unless they happened to have the right color and type of miniature to hand in order to represent the hundreds of different units out there.
Another big advantage of the map symbol was the fact that it could easily be copied across to other officers maps at the briefing, and all the counters/miniatures didn't fall off when they decided to fold it up and take it with them.
Now from what I have read so far, the HOI 4 team using a mixture of art and technology, have devised a method that will allow the models to represent even more information than an old style counter could.
By changing the style of uniform, its color or the model of AFV's, ships etc. they can give us a much better representation of the level of technology, its current actins and nationality of the units occupying that space than the old style counters could, in arguably a much more aphetically pleasing way, that also requires far less of a learning curve, thus leading to less confusion, than the old style counters.
When I did my NCO leadership course we used to carry a tin around, with strips of colored ribbon to represent things like rivers and roads. I also had some monopoly houses and hotels in mine. Anything to give you an edge when making models of the objective in order to dispel as much confusion about your plan as possible. The better the model the less confusion, the more successful you were likely to be.
A small tin may not sound like much of an effort to include in your kit, but when you have to carry everything over difficult terrain, for very long distances, every extra gram is a drain on your strength and more pinch from the bergen straps cutting into your shoulders.
The fact that I and many other NCO's were willing to endure this extra discomfort is testimony as to how important it is to make a good easy to understand model to represent your plan.
If at that time I was able to set up a laptop with HOI 4 figures and the beautiful map they have built to go with them on it, you can bet your bottom dollar I would have used it, instead of torn off pieces of paper with NATO symbols on them stuck into molded mud hills.
The bottom line is, you use whatever you have at your disposal, regardless of what used to be the best way to do things, in order to get your plan across to the rest of your men.
Now I think the HOI team have come up with a brave new way of doing just that, and if they think they can convince me to get onboard with it, I'm willing to listen.
History be damned.
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No, HOI3 does not really have a single "resource pool" that the player spends to feed numerous parts of the game. Look at EU4 where monarch points are an "abstraction" that essentially fuels every essential part of the game.
IC, leadership, and resources are the pillars of HOI3 economy and play "passively". We don't save a number up to invest.
So in HOI4 a lot of that stuff I imagine is still there. Power Projection seems like a mix of new content and abstraction of old HOI content. It could work well, but it doesn't look very appealing to me.
Too much abstraction kills immersion.
And that goes for the map too. I want to feel like I'm playing a World War 2 game. Perhaps "what a ww2 looks like" is subjective, but the HOI4 map does not come close to anything I'd consider "1930s/40s". A map and art with Art Deco influences, for example, could have been cool and appropriate.
The neon color scheme and other map qualities just kill immersion for me (not to mention the toy soldiers).
Anyway, maybe the game will be enjoyable enough that I won't care. We'll see!
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The neverending condescending griping about "toy soldiers", "neon colours" and "serious wargamers", especially about a topic that's been discussed to death, isn't very respectful either. Often it's a good idea to approach others with the same respect you desire in return.
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You talk about EU4 like it is a bad game.
I could never really get into EU3, but EU4 is one of my favourite games ever.
Maybe because I'm not a "serious wargamer" but a filthy casual peasant.
I also love tha "mana" system. Leadership or IC in hoi3 is basically the same. You have x amount, use it wisely.
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I feel the same way. There has been quite a few of these threads in which those titles were thrown at us who like how HOI IV is turning out. The game is most likely coming withing the next 6 months, and I think we are past this. This is the way the game is. So at this point, it's mod it or forget about it.
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Of course I respect your view on what you consider a World War 2 game should look like, but are you considering the fact that generals didn't do all their planning using just 1930-1945 maps.
They also made considerable use of aerial recon photographs.
They spent many an hour pondering over incredibly detailed models of the landscape.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/314618723945366583/
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/314618723946242173/
and yes some of them even had models of equipment on them.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/314618723945864128/
and I have no doubt that more than once a division battle plan was modified by scratching's in the sand with a tin lid placed on it to represent an infantry Division.
There have been, and continue to be, many improvised ways to convey a battle plan and a map.
I don't have to stretch my imagination that far in order to liken the new HOI 4 map to one of the excellent terrain models made during the war, with the aid of aerial recon and local knowledge.
I think a lot of people are confusing the old style maps, not so much with historical accuracies of what the Generals used during the war, so much as what we have become used to since Table Top Game Board then Computer War gaming became popular relatively recently.
https://www.pinterest.com/garyscholes/military-model-making-during-ww2/
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Well you can be both, but taking into account that on the multiple discussions we had, you pretty much fled it after not being able to reproduce any viable arguments, and, I schooled you and others on several concepts that were completely alien to yourselves, I guess that I'm just the former.
That sounds the typical argument thrown at me when people fail astonishingly to defend their point of view.
When I point out bluntly how incoherent an argument is, I'm insulting.
When I obliterate arguments with knowledge, I'm arrogant.
Keep trying.
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really? Can you point me to where we were having a discussion about something?
removed - Had a dad
FU, you are sooo cool! just so cool.
FU, you are sooo cool! just so cool.
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oh, I see it was just a misdirection, since we weren't having a discussion.
I believe it is thou that should keep trying.
also, yes this can be the case, and if you do cross those line; you will hear from a member of the staff
well... um... OK not really sure where you get the idea that you've done this. Each to their own I guess.
Also since I said previously to stick to the OP, and we seem to have gone down a rabbit hole again....
Instead of infracting we'll just close another thread on the same subject as countless others
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