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Oakfan

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Freedom of Speech dude

Soon as someone plays that card, you know they are clueless on its limitations. :rolleyes:

Back to the topic at hand. I personally love the new UI. This coming from someone who plays a lot more complex grand strategy games, were the UI is an after thought.

The colors pop out, makes me want to look at the entire UI more often
 
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Wrong, there is no freedom of speech, as one; this isn't a US gov forum, and two... read what the first amendment says please.


Also he has made it quite clear about how he feels about the map.

uh, no "free speech" =/= the first amendment. free speech is the principle that the amendment was based on. just because something isn't government owned doesn't make it right to censor people.

and saying that you don't like a map (which I disagree with BTW) isn't an abuse of free speech.
 
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uh, no "free speech" =/= the first amendment. free speech is the principle that the amendment was based on. just because something isn't government owned doesn't make it right to censor people.
The fact still remains that free speech and the first amendment have nothing to do with the rules on a message board, whether you think it's right or wrong for, say, the PDX forums to throw people out when they can't behave themselves.
 
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ill add -- you probably wont get kicked off this particular web board, it has some awesome moderators

but freedom of speech will never EVER spare you ridicule. your ammendment rights, or the concept of freedom of speech.
 
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I only go to parties where I get to invade Poland.

If only there was a name for such a party. Something that talks about how national the people are, perhaps indicating their social qualities. People at the party could talk about their work, maybe speak in German while drinking in a hall that serves beer.

I know! You could call it "The Party of German Speaking Workers Who Like Their Nation and its Social Qualities." Nah, it'll never catch on. It needs a snappier name. ;)
 
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Free speech is not limited to the First Amendment of the USA. Article 19 of the International Covenant of Civil and Political Rights (ICCPR) and Article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (UDHR) both mention the freedom of expression, which includes freedom of speech.

Article 19

1. Everyone shall have the right to hold opinions without interference.

2. Everyone shall have the right to freedom of expression; this right shall include freedom to seek, receive and impart information and ideas of all kinds, regardless of frontiers, either orally, in writing or in print, in the form of art, or through any other media of his choice.

3. The exercise of the rights provided for in paragraph 2 of this article carries with it special duties and responsibilities. It may therefore be subject to certain restrictions, but these shall only be such as are provided by law and are necessary:

(a) For respect of the rights or reputations of others;

(b) For the protection of national security or of public order (ordre public), or of public health or morals
(ICCPR, 1976)

However, it is important to keep in mind that the ICCPR is a binding document between "States under the Charter of the United Nations" (ICCPR, 1976) and does not address corporations. Furthermore, Article 19 points out that there valid restrictions of the freedom of expression. Generally, private organizations are granted more leeway in the restrictions they can place on various rights, including freedom of expression. That's why the HoI3 and HoI4 forums are able to state specific rules that you must follow to be allowed to post, including topics that must not be named.

Now, to address the OP's point about the maps and aesthetics. Let me point out that I haven't played HoI3. I have watched some let's plays and read a few AARs, but that isn't the same as playing. So I understand that I cannot really speak to the functionality of the HoI3 maps. But I can discuss the aesthetics of both the game and the maps.

First, I find calling the aesthetic cartoony is not really that helpful. Because the HoI3 colour aesthetic is also found in cartoons. Is calling it cartoony just a means of denigrating the aesthetic style because cartoons often carry with them the connotations of being for children? If so, then an entire artistic medium is being devalued just to voice not liking a certain visual aesthetic. And some cartoons can reach a level of realism depending on the art style, so having cartoony mean "not-realistic" doesn't always work.

Second, realism is worth touching upon. Actually, realism is a meaningful argument when discussing preferences. But it must be remembered that the nature of games places constraints on how realistic they can be. Furthermore, making the game fun to play might require toning down on some of the realism. And with WWII games that want to be sold in Germany, certain elements must be cut to make the game legal. These sorts of alterations are to be expected, but that doesn't mean you can't have realistic mechanics or at least approximations of reality. Now, is having giant counters move across a map any more realistic than having giant models animated on a map? I don't think so. Both are representations of military units. The Prussian Kriegsspiel used blocks of different sizes to indicate the type of unit and dates back to the early 1800s. H.G. Well's Little Wars (from 1913) uses toy soldiers and a toy gun/cannon that can shoot. None of these systems are fully realistic in terms of what they represent, though some might better reflect what militaries of the 1930s and 40s used for operational planning. For military planning, analysis, and running through possibilities realism in mechanics is essential as the goal is to find the strategies and tactics that will help your forces prevail and that goal cannot be met if the simulation does not match reality as close as possible. But for games, realism should not come at the expense of fun. Wargames are complex, as they should be. But this complexity should add fun and not frustration to the game. And when you analyze HoI3 and HoI4 they are really hybrids--part wargame and part grand strategy. You don't have to worry about building factories and assigning production in a game like OCS Korea--your units come according to the reinforcement table/chart. Instead you worry a lot about supply--are my units in trace supply, do I have enough supply to move and fire my artillery, do I have enough supply for attack and defense, can my units here escape being cut off, and such occupy a lot of your considerations.

Third, while there may be things off with the HoI4 map (like GB's and presumably Irelands geographical drift away from Europe), there are also things off about the HoI3 map. I'm looking at a screenshot from a Japanese AAR and am cringing at the creative use of Cyrillic for spelling out Mongolia and Tannu Tuva. The font type is not consistent as some nations (like Germany) get gothic lettering in HoI3. The font size on the historical map the OP provided shows variance (the British Isles, Turkey, and USSR have larger fonts than Germany, Spain, etc.), though not as much as either HoI3 or HoI4 (The Soviet Union's "S" is about 1/4 of Spain's north-south dimension in HoI3 in the image I measured). That and the colour scheme for shading nations on the historical map seems to match HoI4 more than it matches HoI3.

Fourth, the day-night cycle is present in HoI3. If you look at the mini-map you can see a day-night indicator. I have no idea if that has any impact on the game, but it is very clear that such a system exists within HoI3. So the decision to move the system onto the main map was probably made to make it easier to know when it was day and night. Not all who play Paradox games are super observant (some let's players are better than others...). And so I'm guessing that time of day will be important to know in HoI4.

Personally I think that both aesthetics have their strengths. It seems to me that the aesthetic of HoI3 more closely matches that of hex and counter wargames while the aesthetic of HoI4 more closely matches more popular strategy games. So this is likely part of an effort to broaden the appeal of the game. I would love to see a topographical (or close approximation) map mode, but I realise that the implementation would be a nightmare for the artists and could result in a lot of threads about inaccurate terrain depictions as topographic maps tend to carry with them a feeling of more authority than relief-style maps. I suppose there is always laying my topo maps out on a table and marching LEGO pieces, other miniatures, or self-made counters across them.
 
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They can't please everyone. Personally, I like everything about HOI4. Especially the map. In HOI3, the map seemed a little too boring/bland, and just wasn't that nice to look at... But in HOI4... wow, it's incredible. I love what they've done with it. Of course, I'm not saying that you're wrong, or that your opinion is wrong, or that you're stupid, etc. etc., I know everyone has their own tastes and preferences. For your sake, I hope a mod is made that adds a historical map looking feel to it.
 
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I do hope the modding tools to change map are not that hard to use. My issue was always more the number of provinces, which I intend to change as soon as the game is released ;) (yes I will want to do some serious modding with HOI4)

I agree to an extent the map is a bit too bright but the terrain view is secondary to the political one, which is what is used 95% time (at least in EU4 and doubt it isn´t the most used in CK2 too). So what matters is the look of that one.
 

Price21

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Soon as someone plays that card, you know they are clueless on its limitations. :rolleyes:

Back to the topic at hand. I personally love the new UI. This coming from someone who plays a lot more complex grand strategy games, were the UI is an after thought.

The colors pop out, makes me want to look at the entire UI more often
I didn't know I'd cause such an issue over saying he has freedom to say whatever he wishes.. ''Freedom of Speech'' as long as it doesn't harm the other individual, oh but i'm clueless because I used the word Freedom of Speech? Sure it has its limitations, but not being able to state what you believe in because its already been mentioned many times which was Dalyaen's argument.. isn't one of those limitations, therefore he is quite fine in using his right to it :p

Not unless in Sweden they don't have the right to voice their own opinion? :eek:
 
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Lots of people get this wrong. Freedom of speech is the right to say what you want (mostly) without reprecussions from the State. It protects you from being thrown in prison for saying you dislike the President of your country, but it won't keep you from being kicked off of private web forums, blogs, etc.
Of course, we can't say a lot against the state i'm not denying that, but we can say almost anything we like against a map design.. or a decision made by a gaming company for that, I mean this is the forums is it not?
And of course he isn't protected from going against the rules.. The rules are there for a reason and if he breaks them I understand that he will suffer the consequences, although he isn't breaking any rule by voicing his opinion about a map design, I think you're taking this as if I think that Freedom of Speech literally means you can say whatever you want? If you have assumed so I almost completely agree with the opposite.
 
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I didn't know I'd cause such a shit storm over saying he has freedom to say whatever he wishes.. ''Freedom of Speech'' as long as it doesn't harm the other individual, oh but i'm clueless because I used the word Freedom of Speech? Sure it has its limitations, but not being able to state what you believe in because its already been mentioned many times which was Dalyaen's argument.. isn't one of those limitations, therefore he is quite fine in using his right to it :p

Not unless in Sweden they don't have the right to voice their own opinion? :eek:
What you are doing, by definition, is trolling. **********4th Paradox Forum Commandment*************
 
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Price21

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What you are doing is, by definition, is trolling. **********4th Paradox Forum Commandment*************
All I can say is I am not trolling nor have I done any trolling on any Forum because it is wrong and I do not wish to give myself a reputation of such. And if my comment is trolling by definition, your statement is as well because calling someone clueless is an insult which is inflammatory.
 
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Fryslan0109

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I like the overall style of the game, but I do think it's regrettable that mapmodes have been combined.
 
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Daelyn75

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There have been multiple threads over the dislike of the map. This isn't the first time it has happened. Had I only seen this thread and none of the others then I wouldn't have said anything. In fact, I am quite sure people have also compared it to other wargames by screenshot. Yay! Fine for them. I essentially told Modestus that is great that he likes those other styles but it's not going to happen with this game, so if you don't like the art style of HOI IV, feel free to not play it.

That is it. I never told someone to shut up, or that they have no right to complain. I think what happened between me and Modestus has been taken way out of context.
 
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There have been multiple threads over the dislike of the map. This isn't the first time it has happened. Had I only seen this thread and none of the others then I wouldn't have said anything. In fact, I am quite sure people have also compared it to other wargames by screenshot. Yay! Fine for them. I essentially told Modestus that is great that he likes those other styles but it's not going to happen with this game, so if you don't like the art style of HOI IV, feel free to not play it.

That is it. I never told someone to shut up, or that they have no right to complain. I think what happened between me and Modestus has been taken way out of context.
Yes I agree, I apologise for intervening, i'm usually not the one to.. but I couldn't help but feel compelled to stand up for him. Excuse my intrusion, I hope this doesn't happen again.
yax26f.jpg
 
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columbusbobby23

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If there are a sizable percentage of people that don't care for the art direction or particular aspects of the map,colors,pictures etc. Then that means more mods will probably be made for the game. More mods = more choices. So it can't be all bad, right?

I seem to recall Modestus doing a map mod for HOI3. So it's obvious that the map is important to him and that he knows how to mod. So, maybe him and others not liking the map is a good thing for the rest of us.

I think the aesthetics of the game is secondary to gameplay and modability(sp?). Because if the game isn't fun,entertaining and addictive, nobody will care how the game looks a year from now. But if HOI4 is an armchair generals wet dream then we'll be complaining about how hard it is to sift through all the hundreds of mods there are. Map mods included.
 

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but not being able to state what you believe in because its already been mentioned many times which was Dalyaen's argument.. isn't one of those limitations, therefore he is quite fine in using his right to it
it fine to state it, but when you keep stating it, it becomes spam.

And here ends the discussion of freedom of speech etc as it has nothing to do with the OP
 

Zaku

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If only there was a name for such a party. Something that talks about how national the people are, perhaps indicating their social qualities. People at the party could talk about their work, maybe speak in German while drinking in a hall that serves beer.

I know! You could call it "The Party of German Speaking Workers Who Like Their Nation and its Social Qualities." Nah, it'll never catch on. It needs a snappier name. ;)

I think we should call it: The Party of angry German turists sightseeing in Europe. TPAGTSE. That just rolls off from the tongue.
 
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Deathknight15

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I do not understand why people are so insistent on arguing their personal taste in aesthetics like it is the somehow superior.

Its fine to dislike the aesthetics but arguing that the game is somehow "bad" or inferior in some way because your opinion about the graphics is just stupid.

And the people arguing about how the graphics make the game less "serious" or less like a wargame are sort of missing the point. Its only a matter of opinion that a ww2 strategy game should be serious or focus on immersion. If you think the game should focus on these things, well, fine, but don't act like it is some personal slight against you if the developers don't feel the same way or put less priority on those things...


I for one care a lot more about fun game-play, well-designed UI, and a basic amount of historical plausibility. These are the things the game seems to focus on as far as I can tell, which is why I couldn't care less about how the game looks...
 
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