Why is Édouard Daladier the starting leader of France, and not Pierre Laval?

[MobiusTwo]

This seems like an oversight on the part of the devs. Historically, Pierre Laval was Prime Minister from 7 June 1935 – 24 January 1936. Meanwhile, Édouard Daladier was Prime Minister for most of 1933, a few days in 1934, and then again from 10 April 1938 – 21 March 1940. While Daladier was in power for the early portion of WWII, it doesn't make sense for him to be in charge at the game's start.

The United Kingdom also had this problem in earlier builds of the game - Neville Chamberlain was the Prime Minister in 1.0, even though Stanley Baldwin was the one in power on January 1st, 1936. However, this was eventually changed. Going by precedent, it would seem as though the issue with Daladier/Laval should be fixed as well.

The one problem is it might conflict with the new focus tree somewhat, as Pierre Laval is supposed to take power with the "Revive the National Bloc" focus. However, that sort of issue could be resolved by tweaking other focuses somewhat, and making it so Daladier can take power late in the Democratic part of the focus tree.

 

[MattZed]

France had 7 different Prime Ministers (including Léon Blum twice!) between 1936 and 1940. Sometimes it was the National Bloc (represented by Laval), sometimes the Popular Front (represented by Blum), and sometimes leftist Democratic parties going without the Popular Front (represented by Daladier).

But the focus tree isn't set up to go right, then left, then center. You've either picked leftist democratic politics, or rightist democratic politics.

The most sensible way to simulate French politics I can see is:
1. Start with Laval
2. If the player picks "Revive the National Bloc," keep Laval
3. If the player picks "Form the Popular Front," get Blum
4. While the Popular Front is active, have periodic events to determine whether the SFIO (headed by Blum) or the PRS (headed by Daladier) are in charge.

 

[cools0812]

the problem with the new french NF tree is that it isnt designed with a historical path in mind.
Democratic france can go either popular front (blum) or national front(laval), and stick with it for the rest of the game (if they arent killed by germans) .
Daladier, as the moderate choice, is someone france would fall back to if either of the two more radical(left/right) cabinet above collapse, but there arent a event or a mechanic for that collapse in the game. Which means Daladier actually has no place in game at all!
So I guess they just kept Daladier around at the start to not waste that portrait effort, lol.

 

[MobiusTwo]

the problem with the new french NF tree is that it isnt designed with a historical path in mind.
Democratic france can go either popular front (blum) or national front(laval), and stick with it for the rest of the game (if they arent killed by germans) .
Daladier, as the moderate choice, is someone france would fall back to if either of the two more radical(left/right) cabinet above collapse, but there arent a event or a mechanic for that collapse in the game. Which means Daladier actually has no place in game at all!
So I guess they just kept Daladier around at the start to not waste that portrait effort, lol.

That is unfortunate. I try not to be negative on these forums, but I do not know why they would redesign the French focus tree without a mechanic to put Daladier into power, which happened historically, and during WWII, to boot. Like you suggested, if you choose to go down the Democratic path, there should be period election events or something to represent the chaotic situation in French politics, with the option to flirt with the left or the right, or go with a compromise candidate. You could have things like ideology, political power, and stability on the line for each of those decisions.

 

[Enriador]

I have been asking the past 2 years for a similar fix to South Africa's Jan Smuts.

Fallen on deaf ears so far but hey, maybe PDX will eventually take some time to fix these details such as Laval and Smuts before the next DLC in 2021.

 

[MobiusTwo]

I have been asking the past 2 years for a similar fix to South Africa's Jan Smuts.

Fallen on deaf ears so far but hey, maybe PDX will eventually take some time to fix these details such as Laval and Smuts before the next DLC in 2021.

Man, that's frustrating. I'm a big proponent of a South Africa rework, as I feel that focus tree is one of the three worst in the game in terms of historicity. It beats me why this wasn't implemented back when they worked on TfV.
Hopefully they spend some time adding in all the missing portraits and leaders, namely Smuts, Tim Buck (communist Canadian leader), Konstantinos Demertzis (should be Greek prime minister at the game's starting date), 'Abd al-Ilah (should take power in Iraq in 1939), and the Portuguese and Canadian generals, among others. While they're at it, they should redo the portraits for Ataturk and Ignacy Mościcki, which appear to have a different art style, and Hirohito's, which doesn't look like him at all.

 

[Falkenhayn1]

The absence of historical prime ministers destroys the entire flavor.
MattZedd's idea is good, PDX, please, implement it.
It is not so difficult to make several events to replace the leader.
And yes, in 1940, Daladier should be replaced by Paul Reynaud.

 

[ambien]

The France Total Rework mod, which has been around for a long time, is a far better approximation of France's political situation in 1936. Game starts with Laval, who resigns in Jan 1936 and is replaced by Albert Sarraut . The event "Popular Front wins" puts Blum in power in May 1936. There are alternate NF's allowing you to choose whether to keep Blum or replace him with Daladier. Not sure why PDX did not use that mod's ideas.

 

[Indyclone77]

More leaders require more 2D Art time which is taken from elsewhere, Laval probably should start as the PM as suggested by @MattZed but there is little need I personally feel for Sarruat and others to be added for their short terms.

 

[MobiusTwo]

You would think that it wouldn't take too long to add some portraits and events, but I guess not.

As far as ministers go, obviously the "Revive the National Bloc" path doesn't need to be historical, but certainly, if you go down the historical path, you should have the ability to put the historical prime ministers in power. The France Total Rework mod sounds like it's doing the right stuff, and I would like Paradox to rectify this situation without us all having to wait years or more for it, which unfortunately seems to be the case with a lot of this game's development.

Overall, after playing around with La Resistance, it's clear to me that the French focus tree could stand quite a bit more depth.

 

[Indyclone77]

You would think that it wouldn't take too long to add some portraits and events, but I guess not.

As far as ministers go, obviously the "Revive the National Bloc" path doesn't need to be historical, but certainly, if you go down the historical path, you should have the ability to put the historical prime ministers in power. The France Total Rework mod sounds like it's doing the right stuff, and I would like Paradox to rectify this situation without us all having to wait years or more for it, which unfortunately seems to be the case with a lot of this game's development.

Overall, after playing around with La Resistance, it's clear to me that the French focus tree could stand quite a bit more depth.

A portrait takes atleast 4 hours to paint

 

[MobiusTwo]

A portrait takes atleast 4 hours to paint

That's good to know. I really don't want to sound ungrateful or anything, but even if it takes 4 hours to do a portrait, what's a couple more portraits in a DLC that took about a year to develop? I would have waited longer for a more thorough, fleshed out DLC.

 

[kimidf]

if they don't see the ability to make or implement these portraits for different reasons, I think they should ask for help or collaboration with some of the modders who have done great work on their mods, sometimes they improved the portrait of the vanilla game itself in exchange for a small reward and not only to add portraits but also for other similar issues to the addition of other similar items

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1773821334&searchtext=sensible+portaits

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1833865108&searchtext=sensible+portait

 

[Indyclone77]

That's good to know. I really don't want to sound ungrateful or anything, but even if it takes 4 hours to do a portrait, what's a couple more portraits in a DLC that took about a year to develop? I would have waited longer for a more thorough, fleshed out DLC.

That's a very hard question to answer without going into production timescales and other details I cannot professionally disclose. Rest assured every artist works as hard as they can on the project.

 

[MobiusTwo]

if they don't see the ability to make or implement these portraits for different reasons, I think they should ask for help or collaboration with some of the modders who have done great work on their mods, sometimes they improved the portrait of the vanilla game itself in exchange for a small reward and not only to add portraits but also for other similar issues to the addition of other similar items

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1773821334&searchtext=sensible+portaits

https://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=1833865108&searchtext=sensible+portait

Thanks for sharing those! The work in those mods is clearly high-level, and I would have no problem if Paradox cooperated with modders to create the best possible product. Unfortunately, that probably won't ever happen for legal reasons. However, we shouldn't have to rely on downloading mods to fix problems that should not be present in the vanilla game, if that makes sense.

That's a very hard question to answer without going into production timescales and other details I cannot professionally disclose. Rest assured every artist works as hard as they can on the project.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not denying the quality of the artists, or their work ethic. Most of the portraits in HOI4, with the exceptions of the ones I listed earlier in the thread that I feel could stand to be updated, are very good. I am more frustrated at the fact that we have to wait about a year every time we want even minor improvements and changes like portraits to be put in the game, since updates usually only happen around the release of DLC.

 

[MrNewVegas]

More leaders require more 2D Art time which is taken from elsewhere, Laval probably should start as the PM as suggested by @MattZed but there is little need I personally feel for Sarruat and others to be added for their short terms.

Well I for one would gladly sacrifice the entire Law of Exile tree into the dustbin for proper French Flavour.

 

[Dryhad]

the problem with the new french NF tree is that it isnt designed with a historical path in mind.
Democratic france can go either popular front (blum) or national front(laval), and stick with it for the rest of the game (if they arent killed by germans) .
Daladier, as the moderate choice, is someone france would fall back to if either of the two more radical(left/right) cabinet above collapse, but there arent a event or a mechanic for that collapse in the game. Which means Daladier actually has no place in game at all!
So I guess they just kept Daladier around at the start to not waste that portrait effort, lol.

I think the historical path is compatible with the new tree (surely moreso than the old tree, if nothing else), all that is needed is an event for Daladier to take over under the right circumstances, or for him to be added on to some focus further down the tree. I made a suggestion to this effect in the Suggestions forum.

I wholeheartedly support the proposal of this thread to put Daladier in a more historical place.

 

[kimidf]

I believe that not only the French issue should have retailers of Daladier or Renyaud should appear but also for the Spanish Republican case in the Casares Quiroga, Largo Caballero or Negrín cases .

 

[MobiusTwo]

Well I for one would gladly sacrifice the entire Law of Exile tree into the dustbin for proper French Flavour.

Personally, I like the monarchist paths the most, and if the recent dev diary on player statistics is any indication, do does a lot of the playerbase. France having a monarchist branch is fine.

The problem comes in when the historical/plausible paths take a back seat to having shallow and implausible focus tree paths for ideologies just for the sake of having that ideology represented in the focus tree. The biggest offender of this trend, in my opinion, is communist Japan. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I think the Edward VIII abdication crisis and a Spanish monarchist restoration under Franco are probably the most realistic monarchist paths (the player should be allowed to invite Otto von Hapsburg to take the throne, but I digress). Well-fleshed out paths like these, even if they aren't 100% realistic, are cool.

 

[MrNewVegas]

Personally, I like the monarchist paths the most, and if the recent dev diary on player statistics is any indication, do does a lot of the playerbase. France having a monarchist branch is fine.

The problem comes in when the historical/plausible paths take a back seat to having shallow and implausible focus tree paths for ideologies just for the sake of having that ideology represented in the focus tree. The biggest offender of this trend, in my opinion, is communist Japan. On the opposite end of the spectrum, I think the Edward VIII abdication crisis and a Spanish monarchist restoration under Franco are probably the most realistic monarchist paths (the player should be allowed to invite Otto von Hapsburg to take the throne, but I digress). Well-fleshed out paths like these, even if they aren't 100% realistic, are cool.

The historical paths have always, always taken a back seat to paradox doing meme shit. France is a classic example of this