Why is confucianism conceived as a religion?

[Arilou]

Why not give Confucianism large bonus to tolerance and add many provinces with Daoist, traditional Chinese, Bö, etc.?

Becuase these religions aren't split by province, or even by locality. (people can and do belong to all three different "religions")

 

[Koivin]

You know what would solve all of this?

Spoiler

pops (distinction between nobles/peasants)with their own culture, religion and political ideology

 

[Arilou]

You know what would solve all of this?

Spoiler

pops (distinction between nobles/peasants)with their own culture, religion and political ideology

POP's *still* wouldn't solve the issue, unfortunately.

 

[Darsara]

after reading htis four times, i can only conclude that i am too sick to be on this forum .. im going to have nap...

i don't evne understand which side of that you are trying to represent... this is how hopeless it is

what do you mean by "they don't answer prayers, create miracles"
are you talking about religoius gods, or ghosts?

because in certain cultures, BOTH do EACH thing...

but .... im not even sure what it is you were saying..and im groggy and can't breathe well... nap time...

Because I'm not trying to take a side. I was just answering a question. My post was also not written with a specific case (such as Confucianism) in mind. The point of my post was that a religious belief can have an afterlife and gods, not believe that people can meaningfully interact with either of them, yet because they believe in these things it is still a religious belief even though they do not pray to them or anything.

I'll admit, I did have to finish that post more abruptly then I intended, and didn't get a chance to look over what I have written for clarity..

 

[Koivin]

POP's *still* wouldn't solve the issue, unfortunately.

Please elaborate.

 

[Arilou]

Please elaborate.

Because chinese religion(s) aren't split by class. Or even split at all. The same person might go to a daoist temple, take confucian exams and retire to a buddhist monastery.

 

[Rey]

"Confucianism is not a religion. It is more like way of living and a philosophy"

Christianism and Islam aren't ways of living and philosophies?

 

[Darsara]

"Confucianism is not a religion. It is more like way of living and a philosophy"

Christianism and Islam aren't ways of living and philosophies?

They are. They also use lots of spiritual elements as a central component to themselves, while Confucianism references and lightly borrows for context from other religious ideologies. Tortoises are turtles, but turtles are not tortoises. A book has paper, but paper is not a book. That's the jist of the argument here.

 

[Thrake]

The original teachings of Master Kong aren't really religious, but Confucianism acquired supernatural metaphysical elements later, transforming it into a religion. Like most religions, it retains philosophical elements which are not themselves religious as part of its moral or other teachings - the inclusion of these things do not preclude it from being a religion. (Otherwise Christianity would fail to be a religion because the Gospel puts philosophical teachings into the mouth of Christ which make sense even without the Christian religious context, such as 'turning the other cheek').

So... Confucianism isn't based on Confucius teachings?

 

[selectah]

"a decent abstraction"..."sake of gameplay"...

When will these excuses stop being enough?

The European religion system does not really suit China at all. Confucianism is a state ideology, not really a religion, though it does have some religious elements.

They stop being enough when the game mechanics can provide a base for a better representation.

 

[Arilou]

So... Confucianism isn't based on Confucius teachings?

It's based on them, but not just them.

 

[LumberKing]

Another question is, why is Taoism represented as a heresy of Confucianism? Is the game trying to portray Neo-Confucianism in a way? I reckon they should make Taoism a separate religion from Confucianism and give those to and Buddhism some kind of relationship bonuses as well as possibly converting to each other like you can with the Dharmic religions in CK2.

 

[ahyangyi]

Another question is, why is Taoism represented as a heresy of Confucianism? Is the game trying to portray Neo-Confucianism in a way? I reckon they should make Taoism a separate religion from Confucianism and give those to and Buddhism some kind of relationship bonuses as well as possibly converting to each other like you can with the Dharmic religions in CK2.

But... there wasn't a Taoist nation since about 5th century.
Of course Taoist should still get treatment similar to Sikh in EU4.

 

[LumberKing]

But... there wasn't a Taoist nation since about 5th century.
Of course Taoist should still get treatment similar to Sikh in EU4.

Shouldn't there still be Taoist provinces though? Regardless, I agree that Taoist should get better representation than a mere heresy in-game.

 

[ahyangyi]

I think how "spiritual" something is is quite irrelevant here. Maybe that's what we think when we think about the word "religion". But the only reason we use that word is we don't have a better one in English.

For EU4 gameplay, your theology doesn't matter as much as how you treat the various religious power structures. You think a Christian should listen to the Pope then you are a Catholic, you think the few holy books are the only sacred things and don't give the Pope respect then you are a Protestant. The difference in theology is secondary. The primary thing is the power structure.

Confucianism does have a separate power structure through its dogmas. It's definitely a "religion" in EU4 definition.

 

[anomanderus]

If paradox had wanted they could have just had "Chinese Folk Religion" as the majority religion in China

Instead they had Confucianism, just assume that the Chinese gods fall under Confucianism due to the ordered nature of the Confucian world in which everyone needs to do what the people who rank above them tell them to do in ascending order with the emperor beholden only to heaven and the gods

Uhhh.. WRONG lol.

Daoism was the 'religion' for a lot of china, and confucianism was a philosophy, under buddhist religion.

they did it so that they could represent the buddhist side of china (the majority including the imperial courts) and how chinese took buddhism and added onto it greatly with things like feng shui and local culture (lot of 'buddhist' gods in japan are actually not buddhist origin but daoist or even shinto origin)

Confucianism is like..... Capitalism basically, in real terms. A philosophy on governance, economics, and ethics. A lot to do with behavior, management, etc.

It was a philosophy held high in northern/central china for hundreds of years, especially after Han Empire, but I think the 'confucianism' represented in this game, is just a arbitrarily flavourful name being slapped on what is essentially, 'china's take on buddhism' kind of like japanese shinto is 'japans take on chinese take on buddhism'

Shinto is unrelated to Buddhism

Buddhism and Shinto govern different parts of Japanese life for those in Japan who are religious

Because chinese religion(s) aren't split by class. Or even split at all. The same person might go to a daoist temple, take confucian exams and retire to a buddhist monastery.

East Asian religions are syncretic