Why is confucianism conceived as a religion?

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Jokolytic

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I was just about to make a thread on this for the past few days! Nooooo :(

China should not use Confucianism, their religion should just be the Chinese word for their old faith. You know, that religion with the thunder gods and dragons and such...
 

Sabotage13

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I was just about to make a thread on this for the past few days! Nooooo :(

China should not use Confucianism, their religion should just be the Chinese word for their old faith. You know, that religion with the thunder gods and dragons and such...

... which they didn't really follow any more in the EU period?
 

deathsheep221

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China should not use Confucianism, their religion should just be the Chinese word for their old faith. You know, that religion with the thunder gods and dragons and such...
What?
 

highsis

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It is a philosophy about ruling and behaving for social stability. There are no gods. There are ancestral spirits(Tian = Heaven) whose will is carried by the emperor with mandate of heaven, but it is really not a religion.
 

mudcrabmerchant

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The name doesn't matter. The in-game religion represents mutually compatible traditional Chinese beliefs (Korean too). Assume that there is some heavy admixture of Daoism, Buddhism, Chinese and Korean folk religion, etc. thrown into the mix.

It's hard to represent religion in an area where people could ascribe to multiple distinct but compatible belief systems at once, and the Confucian blob is good enough for that purpose.
 

Lemont Elwood

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From what I know, confucianism is a state that is ruled according to the laws that confucius said would result in excellent rule over a country. So why is it seen as a religion in EU 4, is confucianism related to any gods, what is it even all about (if it even is a religion at all?)

Probably so as to distinguish between the "core" Chinese ideology from the fringe that was common in Tibet and originated in India?
 

LumberKing

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It is a philosophy about ruling and behaving for social stability. There are no gods. There are ancestral spirits(Tian = Heaven) whose will is carried by the emperor with mandate of heaven, but it is really not a religion.

Sounds like a religion to me. A lot of people here seems to be rather misusing the term philosophy or making it mutually exclusive to the term religion.
 

Arilou

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... which they didn't really follow any more in the EU period?

But they did (and still do) that's part of what is generally called "chinese folk religion".

To really confuse stuff: Confucius was deified. There are temples to him. These are often daoist or even buddhist temples....
 

rongyuyao

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Another one of those theology/philosophy debates on Paradox forums. Perhaps the adms might create a "Theology" thread or something of the sort...
 

toroltao

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Sounds like a religion to me. A lot of people here seems to be rather misusing the term philosophy or making it mutually exclusive to the term religion.

Well some people believe in ghosts and gods but don't worship anything or practice any rituals. What religion do their gods and ghosts belong to?
 

chatnoir17

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On another topic, if confucianism isn't actually a real religion, why does Korea start of confucian? Is that just because PD is too lazy to add the Korean religion?

Joseon dynasty was quite hostile against Buddhism, unlike their former dynasty.
 

Darsara

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Well some people believe in ghosts and gods but don't worship anything or practice any rituals. What religion do their gods and ghosts belong to?

A non-ritualistic folk-religion. Belief in an afterlife and deities are the central tenant of religion. Gods and ghost may exist, but the follows of that faith would likely assume that they are largely irrelevant to daily life; you can't change the faith you face when you die, or meaningfully communicate with the dead, and gods are disconnected from mortals; they don't answer prays, grant miracles. They exist, but they you might as well be a farmer in Pennsylvania while they are farmers in Mongolia. All in all irrelevant.
 

toroltao

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A non-ritualistic folk-religion. Belief in an afterlife and deities are the central tenant of religion. Gods and ghost may exist, but the follows of that faith would likely assume that they are largely irrelevant to daily life; you can't change the faith you face when you die, or meaningfully communicate with the dead, and gods are disconnected from mortals; they don't answer prays, grant miracles. They exist, but they you might as well be a farmer in Pennsylvania while they are farmers in Mongolia. All in all irrelevant.

It says here:

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Confucianism/Beliefs/Afterlife-and-Salvation.html

That "Kongzi stated that the afterlife was beyond human comprehension. Humans should live and behave in such a way as to promote ideal social relations, rather than to act based on the expectations of rewards or punishments after death. In Confucian terms, a meaningful life is one in which one develops one's innate moral potential to the fullest while fulfilling all of one's social obligations. At the same time, from a Confucian perspective, one cannot live fully in the present without being fully responsible to the past, both in terms of paying respect to one's ancestors and making the best of what they have left behind."

So Confucianism definitely isn't a religion since Confucius believed the afterlife was unimaginable, and therefore irrelevant to the living.
 

TheDanish

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Preface: PhD student of Chinese history with colleagues who work in religious studies and sociology.

Among academics, the debate over whether or not Confucianism should be considered a religion has been ongoing for quite some time. The consensus tends to shift one way or the other every decade or so, and in my experience (which is by no means the final word) religious studies people consider it a religion. I disagree and consider Confucianism to be a complex social philosophy that fills many of the same roles as a religion, but without the extreme focus on providing answers for questions about the afterlife, the nature of the universe, etc. As an example, this is reflected in the absence of (and lack of preoccupation with) a single creation myth among the various Chinese philosophies. On the other hand, Confucianism was really the core repository of moral tenets from which Chinese rulers would draw to establish their own legitimacy, just like religions in other areas of the world.

The problem stems from the fact that the English term "religion" comes from a cultural and historical context that can easily separate distinct units of belief; i.e. Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The social sciences (and to some extent the humanities) like to divide cultural phenomena into distinct and easily separable units. This is really a remnant of late 19th century philosophy that came out of the Enlightenment. The complex and intertwined nature of "religions" in East Asia (Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism in China; Shinto and Buddhism in Japan) make such separations really difficult, but we still want to shoehorn them into a familiar framework. Ergo, confusion over what Confucianism really is.

The discussion over ancestor-worship in particular exacerbates the problem. It seems to be a very "religious" practice, but it predates Confucius, and Confucius himself placed less emphasis on rigid adherence to ancestor worship and more on proper moral conduct. (Analects 11.12: http://ctext.org/analects/xian-jin#n1367).

All of this is kind of irrelevant for the game, because to properly model complex religious practices would require a huge overhaul of not only East Asia, but probably Europe as well. If anyone has ever read The Cheese and the Worms by Ginzburg, you'll know that there's considerable evidence to suggest that whatever early-modern commoners in Europe believed, it was probably highly individualized and so different from doctrinal belief as to shock an inquisitor.

I've never heard anyone argue that Buddhism isn't a religion, though it has a unique history of incorporating the elements of other religions and coexisting alongside them (though not always peacefully)
 

SacredDatura

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The problem with adding Daoism as a separate thing is that, while there are some practices that are clearly Daoist and some that are clearly Buddhist, most Chinese religious practices and beliefs fall within the muddy continuum in between. So you have Daoist temples that worship deities that are clearly Buddhist in origin, and you have Buddhist temples that incorporate elements of Daoism. And then there are all these semi-mythical folk heroes that get added into both pantheons over time. It's nowhere as clear cut as the schisms between the Abrahamic religions where (in EU4's time period) you can say pretty much concretely that "this is Christian, that is Muslim" or "this is Catholic, that is Orthodox". So if implemented you'd have an arbitrary and completely ahistorical religious setup in China similar to the old Han/Cantonese split.

(That said, Ming emperors did have a huge thing for elixirs, which is a very Daoist thing. I'm just not sure this justifies the addition of Daoism as a whole separate religion.)
 

unmerged(463193)

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Preface: PhD student of Chinese history with colleagues who work in religious studies and sociology.

Among academics, the debate over whether or not Confucianism should be considered a religion has been ongoing for quite some time. The consensus tends to shift one way or the other every decade or so, and in my experience (which is by no means the final word) religious studies people consider it a religion. I disagree and consider Confucianism to be a complex social philosophy that fills many of the same roles as a religion, but without the extreme focus on providing answers for questions about the afterlife, the nature of the universe, etc. As an example, this is reflected in the absence of (and lack of preoccupation with) a single creation myth among the various Chinese philosophies. On the other hand, Confucianism was really the core repository of moral tenets from which Chinese rulers would draw to establish their own legitimacy, just like religions in other areas of the world.

The problem stems from the fact that the English term "religion" comes from a cultural and historical context that can easily separate distinct units of belief; i.e. Christianity, Judaism and Islam. The social sciences (and to some extent the humanities) like to divide cultural phenomena into distinct and easily separable units. This is really a remnant of late 19th century philosophy that came out of the Enlightenment. The complex and intertwined nature of "religions" in East Asia (Confucianism, Daoism, and Buddhism in China; Shinto and Buddhism in Japan) make such separations really difficult, but we still want to shoehorn them into a familiar framework. Ergo, confusion over what Confucianism really is.

The discussion over ancestor-worship in particular exacerbates the problem. It seems to be a very "religious" practice, but it predates Confucius, and Confucius himself placed less emphasis on rigid adherence to ancestor worship and more on proper moral conduct. (Analects 11.12: http://ctext.org/analects/xian-jin#n1367).

All of this is kind of irrelevant for the game, because to properly model complex religious practices would require a huge overhaul of not only East Asia, but probably Europe as well. If anyone has ever read The Cheese and the Worms by Ginzburg, you'll know that there's considerable evidence to suggest that whatever early-modern commoners in Europe believed, it was probably highly individualized and so different from doctrinal belief as to shock an inquisitor.

I've never heard anyone argue that Buddhism isn't a religion, though it has a unique history of incorporating the elements of other religions and coexisting alongside them (though not always peacefully)

wow i learned something today
 

Jokolytic

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...you'll know that there's considerable evidence to suggest that whatever early-modern commoners in Europe believed, it was probably highly individualized and so different from doctrinal belief as to shock an inquisitor.

So they did what what nearly every layman does these days?
 

Darsara

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I've never heard anyone argue that Buddhism isn't a religion, though it has a unique history of incorporating the elements of other religions and coexisting alongside them (though not always peacefully)


I've heard people try to claim that Buddhism isn't a religion. They are all but exclusively western hippies that are trying not to offend their Christian relatives or don't want to sound like they are following a religion (or both). Mostly, they follow what is definitely Hollywood-Guru-thing with "Buddhism" stuck on like a label that manages to be so pathetic that it fails to even really be offensive.

As to the actual current topic, I would agree that Confucianism itself is not really a religion. I might use religious elements, but in a way similar to how many countries use religious references in their constitutions and what not without the text itself being religious. It uses elements from folk-religion, Buddhism, Daoism and the like, but not particularly as a part of itself. This is about as far as I'll get involved, since I don't have to sort of deep understanding to make a real argument.
 

Taterthomp2

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It says here:

http://www.patheos.com/Library/Confucianism/Beliefs/Afterlife-and-Salvation.html

That "Kongzi stated that the afterlife was beyond human comprehension. Humans should live and behave in such a way as to promote ideal social relations, rather than to act based on the expectations of rewards or punishments after death. In Confucian terms, a meaningful life is one in which one develops one's innate moral potential to the fullest while fulfilling all of one's social obligations. At the same time, from a Confucian perspective, one cannot live fully in the present without being fully responsible to the past, both in terms of paying respect to one's ancestors and making the best of what they have left behind."

So Confucianism definitely isn't a religion since Confucius believed the afterlife was unimaginable, and therefore irrelevant to the living.
'

Only thing that ever made it set up as a religion IRL was the adoption WITHIN confucian schools of things from separate faiths.

Like what the Han did....

But in the game, the confucianism that is represented, doesn't represent actual confucianism so much as that word is simply used to label "insert chinese-influenced version of buddhism prominant in ming era here" which is uh...more or less hard to explain....

that being said... anthropologically, religion doesn't necessitate a belief in 'afterlife' or any adherence to rules or creeds in order to have a good 'afterlife'. that is just one facet of a many faced beast of a term.