Why is confucianism conceived as a religion?

[Taterthomp2]

Confucianism is not a Chinese take on Buddhism...

Buddhism wasn't even popular in China when Confucianism became a thing.

If Confucianism was a Chinese take on Buddhism, how come Buddhism and Confucianism are separate religions in the game?

What you are basically saying is that a religion like Judaism is a Semitic take on Creationism.

In ... The.... Game...
As in...
the word confucianism you see in the game

is just there
for no reason
other than FLAVOR

to represent
something
thatisnt
even
confucianism

because
confucianism
wasnt
thedominat
'religion'
at
any
point
in
ming
history
one
word
for
you
cos
im
sick
of
trying
to
re
explain
over
and
over!!!!!!!!!!

the confucianism that you see in the game.


IN THE GAME.

in the game... yes

say it with me... -_-

is a MISNOMER (misnamed) for FLAVOUR PURPOSES (feels 'chinese')

of what is essentially for gameplay necessity

a CHINESE take

ON BUDDHISM


i am not SAYING that confucianism in the human real world history that happened reguardless of this game's existance at all

is a chinese take on buddhism

im saying

that they used the name "confucianism" for flavour purposes

instead of naming chinese dominant religion something like "sino-buddhism"

please

please understand


this is so frustrating!

 

[Taterthomp2]

I never suggested any "mixing" or whatever. Not sure where you got that from.

from here

But Buddhism didn't exist in a vacuum. Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism all existed alongside each other. There was no such thing as mono religious area in China. An emperor didn't suddenly opt for Taoism and no Buddhism or Confucianism. They weren't some kind of competing ideology like Islam and Christianity.

was talking about his post not yours

 

[toroltao]

So you agree that Confucianism is not a Chinese take on Buddhism.

 

[Taterthomp2]

So you agree that Confucianism is not a Chinese take on Buddhism.

... YES LOL

I tried to explain this over and over...

the difference of me talking about in game confucianism and real world confucianism XD

 

[LumberKing]

Daoism is a heresy of Confucianism in the game.

 

[deathsheep221]

The concept of religion in China and Asia is very different than in the West.

Cuius regio, eius religio as a concept was unknown in China. The Emperor and the people did not create a large distinction between the various belief systems. If you entered a temple, you would find all the local gods and people burning incense to the various gods.

The best way to describe this is as "Chinese folk religion," but that would not follow the one-word trend of all other religions (Animist, Sunni, Hindu, etcetera). From here we can understand why Paradox used the word "Confucianism."

... I'm getting sick of repeating myself so here goes one last, full blast, try.

wall of text

You can disagree and communicate your point without sounding condescending.

 

[Taterthomp2]

The concept of religion in China and Asia is very different than in the West.

Cuius region, eius religio as a concept was unknown in China. The Emperor and the people did not create a large distinction between the various belief systems. If you entered a temple, you would find all the local gods and people burning incense to the various gods. The best way to describe this is as "Chinese folk religion," but that would not follow the one-word trend of all other religions (Animist, Sunni, Hindu, etcetera).


You can disagree and communicate your point without sounding condescending.

i was not frustrated that my point was being ignored, i was frustrated that i was marking a difference between what in game representation of confucianism is and actual confucianism, and over and over, and

not condescending on purpose, but more a relation to my frustration at being misunderstood.

not ... um

i'm all out of english fluency soon :/

i wasnt saying he didnt undestand my point because he was not intellignet, or trying to condescend, i was just trying to drive home that he was understanding my point in a different way than i meant, that radically changed the entire point, and made me not know how to respond.

If anything, it shows my lack of expository skill, not someone else's lack of intellect.

sorry if it seemed that way...

 

[toroltao]

The concept of religion in China and Asia is very different than in the West.

Cuius regio, eius religio as a concept was unknown in China. The Emperor and the people did not create a large distinction between the various belief systems. If you entered a temple, you would find all the local gods and people burning incense to the various gods.

The best way to describe this is as "Chinese folk religion," but that would not follow the one-word trend of all other religions (Animist, Sunni, Hindu, etcetera). From here we can understand why Paradox used the word "Confucianism."

How is it "folk religion" when the nobles and emperors practiced it as well?

 

[Taterthomp2]

How is it "folk religion" when the nobles and emperors practiced it as well?

it is a often used western term by people who are knowledgable about western religion and custom, but not so much about anthropological definition of what is and isnt religion as a whole. :/

at least in my experience, the addition of 'folk' to the word religion relates to people who find it less organized than what they are accustomed to calling religion.

For that matter... almost all pagan faith is 'folk' religion since many people in the germanic faith didnt believe or worship certain goes but did others, and no one gave two cents.

it is a phrase used exclusively by people who are used to more organized religion, is the easy answer to your question.

it does not change the fact that they were, and are, religions as much as any abrahamic faith ever could aspire to be. in fact, daoism had more believers than europe had people for several several centuries

basically, it's an informal phrase that points out the difference in faith organisation.

for instance, you would never see a "vicar of Buddha" (just well respected students of the teachings, but certainly no one divinely right and all-encompassing of the faith's will.

 

[deathsheep221]

How is it "folk religion" when the nobles and emperors practiced it as well?

Folk does not necessarily exclude the upper classes.

since many people in the germanic faith didnt believe or worship certain goes but did others, and no one gave two cents.

Also how it works in CFR (to my knowledge).

 

[toroltao]

Folk does not necessarily exclude the upper classes.

So then what exactly makes it "folk"?

 

[Arilou]

"Confucianism" is a catch-all term for various chinese folk religions, taoism, and buddhism. (also known as the "Han Synthesis")

for instance, you would never see a "vicar of Buddha" (just well respected students of the teachings, but certainly no one divinely right and all-encompassing of the faith's will.

Well, there's actually been quite a few Buddha claimants. (though most of them were short-lived for obvious reasons)

 

[deathsheep221]

So then what exactly makes it "folk"?

Because I wouldn't go ahead and call it "Chinese religion" because there was no singular Chinese faith. The practices and gods (or naming/meaning of) varied greatly from region to region.

 

[Arilou]

So then what exactly makes it "folk"?

The fact that it is practiced among the people rather tahn in rigidly defined institutions?

There's "folk-christianity" as well, and that doesen't neccessarily exclude noblemen (or even clerics) from having those kinds of religious opinions.

 

[toroltao]

The fact that it is practiced among the people rather tahn in rigidly defined institutions?

There's "folk-christianity" as well, and that doesen't neccessarily exclude noblemen (or even clerics) from having those kinds of religious opinions.

Then why isn't Christianity described as a folk religion?

 

[Arilou]

But Buddhism didn't exist in a vacuum. Buddhism, Taoism, and Confucianism all existed alongside each other. There was no such thing as mono religious area in China. An emperor didn't suddenly opt for Taoism and no Buddhism or Confucianism. They weren't some kind of competing ideology like Islam and Christianity.

Well, there were a couple of early arguments against Buddhism, but by the time of the game it had been largely integrated.

China shouldn't have religions at all. It should have teachings, consisting of the the three: Daoism, Buddhism, and Confucianism, all existing within the same area.

This doesen't work. (because of the way the game works, and the way chinese people interacted with these) the "Confucian religion" in-game basically represents the Han-Synthesis of Daoism, various philosophies, folk religions and buddhism. None of these had individual dominance ina province, but as a whole the Han-Synthesis was dominant.

 

[Arilou]

Then why isn't Christianity described as a folk religion?

Christianity is a folk-religion. And an established religion. They're both facets of christianity.

 

[toroltao]

Well, there were a couple of early arguments against Buddhism, but by the time of the game it had been largely integrated.



This doesen't work. (because of the way the game works, and the way chinese people interacted with these) the "Confucian religion" in-game basically represents the Han-Synthesis of Daoism, various philosophies, folk religions and buddhism. None of these had individual dominance ina province, but as a whole the Han-Synthesis was dominant.

So Confucianism isn't a religion, but a set of religions and philosophies.

 

[Arilou]

So Confucianism isn't a religion, but a set of religions and philosophies.

For the purpose of the game? Yes.

(you can make a similar argument about buddhism, hinduism, and certainly shamanism/totemism/paganism, and arguably even christianity and islam, even wtihin the denominations already represented)

Even if the concept of a single religion didn't exist in China the way it developed in the west, there were a set of teachings, religions and traditions that could be described as distinctly "chinese religion" this is what is represented by "confucianism" in-game.

 

[Darsara]

Then why isn't Christianity described as a folk religion?

"Christianity" maybe. Catholicism, or Lutheran, or Anglican? No. The general Christianity has many variations and regional differences, while most Christian churches and groups have clearly defined texts, theology and whatnot. While over all Christiany shares many ellements, not all, which make it borderline.