Why is confucianism conceived as a religion?

[achmedino]

From what I know, confucianism is a state that is ruled according to the laws that confucius said would result in excellent rule over a country. So why is it seen as a religion in EU 4, is confucianism related to any gods, what is it even all about (if it even is a religion at all?)

 

[toroltao]

Because nothing else in China really corresponds with Western religious beliefs, which this game is bent on emulating. That is everything western and so the model of the world is a western one. Hence why Oirat horde has better technology than China. Because they're west of them.

 

[Taterthomp2]

Because nothing else in China really corresponds with Western religious beliefs, which this game is bent on emulating. That is everything western and so the model of the world is a western one. Hence why Oirat horde has better technology than China. Because they're west of them.

Uhhh.. WRONG lol.

Daoism was the 'religion' for a lot of china, and confucianism was a philosophy, under buddhist religion.

they did it so that they could represent the buddhist side of china (the majority including the imperial courts) and how chinese took buddhism and added onto it greatly with things like feng shui and local culture (lot of 'buddhist' gods in japan are actually not buddhist origin but daoist or even shinto origin)

Confucianism is like..... Capitalism basically, in real terms. A philosophy on governance, economics, and ethics. A lot to do with behavior, management, etc.

It was a philosophy held high in northern/central china for hundreds of years, especially after Han Empire, but I think the 'confucianism' represented in this game, is just a arbitrarily flavourful name being slapped on what is essentially, 'china's take on buddhism' kind of like japanese shinto is 'japans take on chinese take on buddhism'

 

[Big Blue Blob]

Uhhh.. WRONG lol.

Daoism was the 'religion' for a lot of china, and confucianism was a philosophy, under buddhist religion.

they did it so that they could represent the buddhist side of china (the majority including the imperial courts) and how chinese took buddhism and added onto it greatly with things like feng shui and local culture (lot of 'buddhist' gods in japan are actually not buddhist origin but daoist or even shinto origin)

Confucianism is like..... Capitalism basically, in real terms. A philosophy on governance, economics, and ethics. A lot to do with behavior, management, etc.

It was a philosophy held high in northern/central china for hundreds of years, especially after Han Empire, but I think the 'confucianism' represented in this game, is just a arbitrarily flavourful name being slapped on what is essentially, 'china's take on buddhism' kind of like japanese shinto is 'japans take on chinese take on buddhism'

China's religion should really be Daoism. Confucianism is not a religion. As for technology, China should start at tech 5 or so, ahead of Europe, and then fall behind if it becomes complacent and does not westernise.

 

[toroltao]

I don't see how Daoism is any more of a religion than Confucianism. They both follow heavy philosophical and ethical traditions rather than deistic or church focused religions elsewhere. Shinto isn't based on the Chinese take of Buddhism either. There are plenty of those, but Shinto isn't one of them. You could take out the religious aspects such as deities and the philosophical teachings would still remain completely intact.

 

[DevastatingTech]

I heard Daoism.

 

[achmedino]

I've heard about daoism from my Chinese friend, well he didn't know what it was but he told me that it was a religion with quite a few worshippers. Also Shinto is definitely not the Japanese take on the Chinese take of Buddhism. Shintoism is something I do actually know quite a lot about, and it's the original religion of Japan. Later on, when buddhism spread to Japan via China, a lot of the Shintoïstic and Buddhist tradition got mixed up. Saying that Japan is "Shintoistic" isn't really 100% accurate either. It would make more sense to say "Shinto-Buddhist" but that's too long a name for Paradox I guess.

On another topic, if confucianism isn't actually a real religion, why does Korea start of confucian? Is that just because PD is too lazy to add the Korean religion?

 

[Big Blue Blob]

I've heard about daoism from my Chinese friend, well he didn't know what it was but he told me that it was a religion with quite a few worshippers. Also Shinto is definitely not the Japanese take on the Chinese take of Buddhism. Shintoism is something I do actually know quite a lot about, and it's the original religion of Japan. Later on, when buddhism spread to Japan via China, a lot of the Shintoïstic and Buddhist tradition got mixed up. Saying that Japan is "Shintoistic" isn't really 100% accurate either. It would make more sense to say "Shinto-Buddhist" but that's too long a name for Paradox I guess.

On another topic, if confucianism isn't actually a real religion, why does Korea start of confucian? Is that just because PD is too lazy to add the Korean religion?

Shinto is not Buddhist, it is the worship of traditional Japanese kami (gods) in its most traditional form, though it is now diluted with Buddhism. Many Chinese regions were also pagan in 1444, worshipping many gods. As for Korea, it is simply Paradox being lazy and ignorant, as usual.

 

[toroltao]

I've heard about daoism from my Chinese friend, well he didn't know what it was but he told me that it was a religion with quite a few worshippers. Also Shinto is definitely not the Japanese take on the Chinese take of Buddhism. Shintoism is something I do actually know quite a lot about, and it's the original religion of Japan. Later on, when buddhism spread to Japan via China, a lot of the Shintoïstic and Buddhist tradition got mixed up. Saying that Japan is "Shintoistic" isn't really 100% accurate either. It would make more sense to say "Shinto-Buddhist" but that's too long a name for Paradox I guess.

On another topic, if confucianism isn't actually a real religion, why does Korea start of confucian? Is that just because PD is too lazy to add the Korean religion?

There's nothing in east Asia that corresponds with religions elsewhere. Certainly not after the rise of the Abrahamic religions.

They're more like philosophies that co opted local deities and superstitions into them.

 

[Taterthomp2]

That in no way makes them not religions.

Cultural Anthropology student ._.

 

[Brainblow]

I don't see how Daoism is any more of a religion than Confucianism. They both follow heavy philosophical and ethical traditions rather than deistic or church focused religions elsewhere. Shinto isn't based on the Chinese take of Buddhism either. There are plenty of those, but Shinto isn't one of them. You could take out the religious aspects such as deities and the philosophical teachings would still remain completely intact.

Shintoism is essentially just a animist faith with a lot of outside influence(mostly Buddhist and Confucian thought). It wasn't even a formal religion before the 20th century when the Japanese government formalized it and "separated" it from Buddhism.(Shinto-Buddhist shrines were much more common before the formalization, and Buddha statues were quite common in many shrines)

 

[Taterthomp2]

ORIGINAL shintoism, was ancestor worship and literally nothing more. plain old pagan. it has a specific japanese cultural input into the origin stories and the primary dieties, but other than that, it is basically flat paganism. Shintoism vastly changed with the influx of Buddhist ideology and i don't know where people get this idea that religion means a building where you go to pay tolls and hear about book passages.


Religion is a series of traditions, rituals, and beliefs.

In fact when referring to the past, it can be pretty wiry to tell what is and isn't a religion.

Confucianism though, is definitely, not. As it's literally based in buddhism.

Maybe at MOST, confucianism can be seen as the protestantism to asiatic 'catholicism' (or going further back, the iconoclast to the orthodox)

Saying these areas didnt have religion, is entirely, 100%, ridiculous. :/

 

[toroltao]

That in no way makes them not religions.

Cultural Anthropology student ._.

Then what does make them religions?

 

[Taterthomp2]

Cultural and traditional ritualistic practice, beliefs, and the people who believed them, is what makes them religions...

Do you know what a religion is? ._.

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.

lol animism isn't "not a religion" daoism isn't "not a religion" hindusm isnt "not a religion" totemism isn't "not a religion" and for that matter

cults that last more than a few decades are religions too. Scientology for instance.

I'm not speaking to the merit of their glory. But the word religion has meaning, and it's meaning describes exactly these things.

 

[FreeSoc]

As for technology, China should start at tech 5 or so, ahead of Europe, and then fall behind if it becomes complacent and does not westernise.

This definitely needs to be a thing, because the entirely warranted Sub-Saharan tech buff now means that Ming and Benin have the same starting tech and tech growth, which is plainly ridiculous.

 

[Tzumao]

Confucianism though, is definitely, not. As it's literally based in buddhism.

Maybe at MOST, confucianism can be seen as the protestantism to asiatic 'catholicism' (or going further back, the iconoclast to the orthodox) /

What are you talking about? Confucianism and Buddhism came into existence at roughly the same time, in China Confucianism is obviously much older since Buddhism didn't spread there until centuries later.

 

[Taterthomp2]

AND they should buff korean dip tech to 3 at 1444 (because of a bug that makes ship templates not work XD)

 

[toroltao]

Cultural and traditional ritualistic practice, beliefs, and the people who believed them, is what makes them religions...

So a sport like Mongolian Wrestling could be classified as religion since it is cultural, traditional, and contains ritualistic elements, with smacks of superstitious beliefs surrounding them.

 

[Druplesnubb]

Is there any reason Paradox couldn't just rename Confucianism to Daoism and call it a day?

 

[Taterthomp2]

confucianism wasnt a strong system in the governments until Han came along. before that it was totally irreligious.

I was referring to it as it could nearest be considered a religion.

Pre-han, confucianism was not even very popular :S

but you are right, it was not Buddhist. I got my own timeline messed up