Why innovative ideas are so rare choice?

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Xetfield

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I know that nearly all players tend to take Admin ideas for core-cost, mercenaries and states and Religion/Humanist for conquests and dealing with their consequences. From my point of view, Innovative is amazing too, they are more flexible for every possible gamestyle. They will save not only admin points with money, but also diplo + mil points, prestige and war exhaustion. Even 10% discount for institute embracement cost is huge for every great power.
For example, in my Milan run I took them first, and they worked so great in combo with Milan's ideas. It was so hard to choose to move to the Italian ideas.
 
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hermithill

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The problem with innovative is that, at least for me, even if there are good ideas in the group (war exhaustion reduction), some of them are rather weak (Reduce inflation cost) or not very good (prestige decay), and there is no Whoa ideas. So other groups are globally just better.
 

SaucyBaron

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Because innovative only has two things that aren't complete garbage: war exhaustion and the infantry combat ability policy.

Institution embracement is virtually worthless over the course of the game, it'll maybe save you 1 or 2 loans at most, and all the other bonuses are overshadowed by other groups, economic will help you more for getting difficult institutions.

You aren't taking into account the opportunity cost of not taking a better admin group like religious, humanist, or admin.
 
Nov 9, 2017
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The best part of Innovative ideas are their policies and events IMO, although I do like tech cost, -WE, and adviser costs now that advisers can go to level 5. With the amount of money that is in the game I'd say the benefits of economic have fallen off a bit, and we might see Innovative taken a bit more often.

That said It's never going to unseat Admin and Humanist/Religious in an optimal context. Since it's not getting taken in the first 4-5 idea groups, the Tech cost reduction and institution cost are not as useful as they may seem at first. It still might be worth taking later in the game for the policies, but that's only if you can afford to spend the admin points, and there are more things to spend Mil points on now than ever before, so taking a few policies is no longer a no-brainer.

I love Innovative, I take it quite often in a more RP based campaign, but you can take anything in an RP setting.
 

Xetfield

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and there is no Wow ideas
How about reduction of the technology cost? It may save tons of points if the group will be taken first.
 
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Xetfield

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Institution embracement is virtually worthless over the course of the game, it'll maybe save you 1 or 2 loans at most, and all the other bonuses are overshadowed by other groups, economic will help you more for getting difficult institutions.
My runs (though uncompleted) showed that territorial expansion is better that using this group or points to improve the current economy in almost all situations
 
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Xetfield

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Except taking innovative first means you don't take admin, humanist, or religious first...

It's kinda boring to take them as a first admin group every time.
 
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hermithill

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How about reduction of the technology cost? It may save tons of points if the group will be taken first.

Yes this is a good idea, but not overwhelming, in my opinion: admin has the admin cost reduction + RCC (saves a lot of admin points) - religious has deus vult (even if it is only at the end now) that saves a lot of diplo points.
 

I_am_Nemo

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A 5% tech discount isn't that much overall; it's nice, but not a selling point. Admin points are more scarce than mil/diplo when you're blobbing, anyhow, so the 10% admin tech cost off admin will rate equal/better all by itself, never mind RCC. Prestige - once you get going, you're generally throwing it away by gaining 50 prestige while you already have 99. Get some triggered modifiers + religious + great power and you can be /gaining/ prestige while at 99 prestige. It's kind of absurd, really.

The war exhaustion reduction is great, especially if you can't get DoTF, but not enough to sell the group all be itself. Institution embracement is meh. There are only so many institutions to embrace, it won't save you that much over the course of the game, and mega-blobbing usually leaves you with tons of cash by the time you hit the last institution or two.

In other words, it's not really strong enough to justify taking it over all the other idea groups you probably want, and most of the things it does well are done as well/better somewhere else. If you're playing tall, Econ and exploration (to colonize) or trade (if you're playing land-locked) will be much better money wise. Econ will save you a ton more money on buildings/unit costs, while making you tons of money and saving you quite a few MPs on developing if you're outside of Europe or just developing instead of conquering. You'll want military ideas as well, since you wont have the built-in quantity of a ton of development; you'll need quantity ideas and/or the "big three" quality boosters - def/off/qual.

If you're blobbing, admin, humanist, influence, diplo are all pretty well locked in. Admin and Diplo ideas have Admin/Diplo cost discounts built in on top of being otherwise very strong groups (diplo allows you to reduce war exhaustion for reduced cost, for instance). Influence will also save you a ton of dip points if you don't take religious, as well as it being a must-have for making use of vassals, dealing with aggressive expansion, etc. Humanist for separatism if nothing else, taking religious /and/ humanist isn't actually a bad call. Military ideas generally play well here also, as more mil quality = less money spent on quantity, easier, faster wars, etc.

Innovative really isn't /bad/, it's just not good enough to compete with the best options. If you want variety in ideas, it's hardly going to cripple you, it's just not the strongest group out there.
 

makaramus

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With new advisor mechanics they are actually quite good you can start picking 5 star advisors even earlier :D

benefits:
1)Faster access to 3/4/5 level advisors
2)Op as hell policies
3)Very strong late game event giving you REALLY HUGE discount(it was %25 tech discount if I rembember well wich means you can access to techs 2 year ahead wich means you can simply crush everyone around you allways :D)

infilation cost one is terrible I agree to profit from it you need to spam it a lot wich if you gonna have lots of ifilation its just better to spam advisor for it or better pick economic idea :D other than that its good :)
 
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If you were to take innovative ideas first(I always take a Diplo idea group first so that I don't have to wait as long on my second set of Ideas, but for the sake of argument...) and get the third idea before taking any other tech, you are saving roughly 4860 total monarch points over the course of an entire game(10% of 600= 60. 60x3=180. 180x27 remaining techs =4860).

1620 of these are less valuable Military points, but an argument can be made for ease of staying ahead of current tech, and the new uses for mil points.

1620 of these are middling value Diplomatic points. These are quite valuable for integrating vassals, peace deals and developing gold provinces. Maybe early culture conversion.

1620 of these are what allow you to actually core and integrate land.

If we take Admin ideas with our 2nd group of ideas then finish the group before taking our next admin tech we get 1500 admin points from tech cost reduction alone. That leaves a deficit of 3360 points at face value. This looks bad at first, until we realize that admin points are much more valuable than the others. Even if we consider admin points to be the equal of the other points the point savings still don't hold up. Admins' CCR gives 25% off of coring. We only need to core 1334 development to make up the difference(1334 dev x 10 admin per dev= 13340 admin points. 25% of 13340 admin points= 3360 admin points.)

There are a lot of other variables to consider, and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest to hear my math is wrong at some point. It's been a while, and this was hastily thrown together.

Even if I'm off, or you want to quibble over other modifiers(Such as admin efficiency or claims) by the time you're approaching 2000 development cored, admin ideas has out stripped innovative ideas in pure monarch points and they are all much more valuable admin points.
 

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I like the 20% inf combat ability policy, worth taking Innovative for that.
 

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Innovative has basically the same drawback as expansion: it's not a bad group and contains some ideas and policies that are nice to have, but it comes with an opportunity cost of not picking humanist, religious, administrative or economic.
As a DIP group, both expansion and innovative would be much more common picks, I think (which is not to say that they should be DIP) - they are better than espionage, more or less on par with maritime, exploration and trade and only slightly worse than diplomatic and influence.
 

TheMeInTeam

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They are out-competed by administrative and one of religious/humanist (humanist for most religions now). As a 3rd admin group pick, the tech cost reduction is much less attractive since you are over half of the way done with potential techs by then.

I think I would take it if administrative ideas suddenly didn't exist, to get the -75% or -85% adviser cost via stacking with estate discount and promoting to +5. With no core cost reduction that would probably be next up.
 

PhoenixG

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While I like to pick innovative (and espionage) very often, but most of the time other ideas are just more useful and gain visible effects. While these are felt more on the long term.

Besides that they are more useful in MP than SP, since the "important" once are less valuable.
 

TenshiN

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The problem with the is that they require admin points to fill, and while there are some ideas that are quite good, they are just not worth taking over Administrative or Religious/Humanist. Even when it has such amazing related policies. I do like taking it sometimes when playing a military-heavy nation, like Brandenburg or Sweden solely for the reason of those policies.

But that is singleplayer. In MP, it is one of the better choices though, because in MP, stacking military quality bonuses is the way to go, and its policies deliver that.