Why I think the next DLC or Update needs to revisit European Majors

[sbalani]

I know the next update isn't even out yet, but considering that the last one was so very Asia focused with the Mandate of Heaven mechanic, some love needs to be given back to the European Powers colonial efforts.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First_wave_of_European_colonization

Here is a map of the first wave of colonization. You'll notice that in 1550 and in 1754 Most of coastal Africa, India and a slew of islands in South East Asia have been colonized/claimed. Something that practically does not happen nowadays unless it is the player making an active effort to make Inroads into Asia. Otherwise the AI pretty much ignores it in favor of the new world.

Whilst I'd love to see some mechanics (perhaps in the final age) that draws attention to Asia, at the very least I'd love to see some AI tweaking that causes the AI to want to have a presence in Asia. It doesn't need to be significant (but it can be), but it would be nice to not be the only European Major making inroads in Asia game after game.

I understand that since most of Asia is now populated by countries, it is not possible to colonize, which is what the AI used to use to generate a foothold in Asia. Nowadays however, an actual invasion needs to be done to craft out some space in Asia, which the AI is not doing.

 

[Twoflower]

I wholeheartedly agree, but let me warn you that you will most likely be buried in a stream of diatribes on how any attempts in the direction of allowing something close to a historical outcome is wrong because circumstances in the game are necessarily different from history.

That said, and although it is most likely futile, it would be awesome if European AI countries were better at securing territory in Africa and Asia. No, this doesn't mean that any freebies should be given to anybody, and it doesn't mean that said colonizers should always be the historical European majors.
However, if AI countries sitting in the Sevilla, Bordeaux or English Channel nodes that are in a position to support a colonial Empire were
1. more interested in conquering provinces in trade company territories beyond the Cape of Good Hope
2. more competent in pulling of the required naval invasion
3. actually somewhat more likely to defeat countries in East Africa, Arabia, India and Indonesia in order to secure territories there

that would be a very desirable improvement for the game.

 

[Troopperi]

I think that the current conquest/province approach makes it quite black and white, if the Euros were more competent, they would just grab stuff and blob around Asia freely. Now they just colonise provinces and it doesn't really feel like they have notable presence there. Some trading post stuff could be nice, so that Euros can control some trade and have some bases, but won't necessarily blob everywhere. I'm not expert in British conquest of India, but it seems that it partly happened during EU timeframe, so more direct conquest could be also possible if circumstances are favourable.

Some non-conquest influence interaction with the west and the east could add good flavour for both parties too.

 

[sbalani]

I wholeheartedly agree. I for one am a huge proponent of alternate histories, and would love to see Asian nations on random ocasion go after ideas that make them challenging or impossible to european countries. Having said that I still think European countries should be able to gain land in Europe.

On that note I have just had an Idea with regards to the new trade system for Islamic nations. Once again I think it is a fantastic feature. However I think it should be made available to all nations, with skewing happening towards certain religion based on age, or including it in Ideas, with Non islamic nations first, then Islamic nations getting it next, and christian nations getting it later. This would reflect the flow & influence of Hinduism and Budhism in the early game, with the onslaught of Islam for most of the middle game, and some bastions of christianity late game.

Furthermore, "Western" nations could have a slightly different mechanic wherein they generate "goodwill" points thru trade, which can be cashed out for either a random / selected state and/or alliance/vassalage with nations in the trade node. This could again reflect the fact that many holdings during this time were in fact trade posts, which most of the expansion in Asia happening during the victorian period.

Furthermore, taking advantage of the "given land" and using it as a reason to attack neighbors and expand militarily could result in major opinion drops from other nations in the region.

This way, the developers wouldn't have to worry about dealing with military AI to find a way to improve naval invasions, and it would also allow smaller trading nations such as the netherlands to realistically acquire land in Asia, as they did in Indonesia.

This mechanic could also be used to balance out the overpoweredness of the Chinese empire in the new mandate of heaven DLC as well, as western nations could use the trade nodes as a way to pull influence away from China.

 

[sbalani]

I think that the current conquest/province approach makes it quite black and white, if the Euros were more competent, they would just grab stuff and blob around Asia freely. Now they just colonise provinces and it doesn't really feel like they have notable presence there. Some trading post stuff could be nice, so that Euros can control some trade and have some bases, but won't necessarily blob everywhere. I'm not expert in British conquest of India, but it seems that it partly happened during EU timeframe, so more direct conquest could be also possible if circumstances are favourable.

Some non-conquest influence interaction with the west and the east could add good flavour for both parties too.

You literally just wrote something with regards to what I was saying.

You are correct, English (and french and portuguese) presence in India was all coastal. as was most Asian AND African colonies. they were either Coastal provinces, islands or archipielagos (in the case of the Philippines).

And as you said, to avoid blobbing, I suggested using the trade mechanic to try and squeeze out provinces, with the option to blob. But in doing so you incurr massive penalties if done militarily.

 

[earlofbrigand]

It should be part of a major overhaul of naval mechanics.

To colonise you need navy tradition and a strong navy. How can people move to the colonies if there isn't safe shipping to get them there? How can colonies thrive without trading routes and trading ships? Tradition should allow you to map and explore.

You need lots of sailors to do this too.

 

[smellymummy]

you know at the very least, AI portugal really ought to take advantage of all its freebies and be in the spice islands before the 17th century. As a player, whatever european country, there is just so much income to be had, and it doesn't take all that much effort to be first.

The thing about encouraging the computer going east though, I think, is that it will lead to some very ahistorical stuff, like england in zanzibar in the 1500s for example. But you see, to me I prefer the historical like outcomes over the other stuff

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the really big hurdle in all of this is just the AI's gross incompetence at ferrying troops around mixed in with the huge stacks the asian nations can end up fielding

 

[Orkonkel]

I kind of wish the game would allow to portray the wealth gained from Asian colonies much better. As is, you just go there to conquer the entire subcontinent for huge piles of ducats, but in reality, just having trading ports were hugely profitable for European powers. Trade fleets should work like gold fleets, removing value from a node and shipping it back to your home trade port. Nations that pirate the fleet could capture it and its spoils.

Even better if you send real, actual light ships on a trade fleet mission that's not swarming a node for power, but taking wealth from the node and sending it back home. Make the fleet sail the distance too so it is visible what is actually going on (same with gold fleets). Would really love this.

 

[Orkonkel]

Also good luck getting AI Portugal a single province in India in any game ever. They would get smashed.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

What OP said, isn't in total historically correct. Ok, I know there's this Wiki map. But as others have mentioned, even far after 1550 european presence was nearly only coastal. And this is not only true for Africa and Asia, but for Americas, too.
The Spanish destroyed the great native nations, robbed and plundered them, then they went for gold and silver mines and some plantations and they had ports to transfer the stuff to Europe. They did not bring that much population to the New World, especially not when seen in comparison to the wide lands they claimed. Calim is a key word. many territories in the cited map were claimed, but not controlled, not to speak of being colonized. For many parts Spain and later Mexico held, it needed the USA to bring significant population there (Florida, Texas, New Mexico, California). The Portuguese did the same, but to a lesser extent than the Spanish. French were similar and started later, also were set back several times by war losses and stuff.
Only the British did do a significant colonisation, but this started in 17th century and was really going in the second half of it and in 18th century.
For Africa, there's nearly no significant colonisation, beside of the Dutch in South Africa. In Asia, there wasn't any.
What most people miss, also because popular history doesn't mention it, the Europeans needed much time to become big players in India and rest of Asia. In 16th and also for most of 17th century, most of the trade in Indian ocean was between the nations there. It isn't well known, because most historians are from european origin and study european sources to understand the history there. So you need to go to specialists for Indian history. Ten years ago I had 2 classes at university held by experts for Indian history. That's what I took out of it.
The european dominance in Asia started late 18th century with the British, others following in 19th century. So it's mostly not EUIV time frame, but Victorias. At that time, Europeans had lost most of their American colonies already. And how strong the control of Africa was, you can see by regarding the fact, that Inner African exploration (!) was finished in 19th century. What you haven't explored, you can't control.
So long story short, what EUIV colonisation represents at the moment, isn't so far from historical reality.

 

[Metz]

The colonial system needs to be more dynamic. It's too rigid with colonial nations and the way they expand.

 

[C.N.]

I think that the next expansion needs to focus on Portugal and India. Also, the Indian area needs some kind of trade post system where you buy trade rights instead of conquering land.

 

[Dalos]

Iberian focus would be great. Castile, Aragon, Portugal and maybe even something small for Granada.

 

[sbalani]

you know at the very least, AI portugal really ought to take advantage of all its freebies and be in the spice islands before the 17th century. As a player, whatever european country, there is just so much income to be had, and it doesn't take all that much effort to be first.

The thing about encouraging the computer going east though, I think, is that it will lead to some very ahistorical stuff, like england in zanzibar in the 1500s for example. But you see, to me I prefer the historical like outcomes over the other stuff

Now that I think about it, I wouldn't be surprised if the really big hurdle in all of this is just the AI's gross incompetence at ferrying troops around mixed in with the huge stacks the asian nations can end up fielding

Nothing wrong with getting ahistorical stuff, that's half the fun of the paradox games. What's leaves me wanting is, although I love the ahistoricalness, what I like, I guess is for the ahistoricalness to be "believable" in the context of real history. (i.e. I don't expect the game's AI to go for the same countries they did in real life, but at least try to make an approach for the region!)

With regards to gross incompetence, I don't think it's even that. Unless the European countries have some kind of actual land in Asia, they have 0 interest to be involved in, or try to take any asian teritories.

In my last game I had the HRE take South Africa all the way up and until the Horn of africa, which was dominated by the Manamids. They stopped there, adn did not expand any further, and I've seen this game after game

 

[sbalani]

I kind of wish the game would allow to portray the wealth gained from Asian colonies much better. As is, you just go there to conquer the entire subcontinent for huge piles of ducats, but in reality, just having trading ports were hugely profitable for European powers. Trade fleets should work like gold fleets, removing value from a node and shipping it back to your home trade port. Nations that pirate the fleet could capture it and its spoils.

Even better if you send real, actual light ships on a trade fleet mission that's not swarming a node for power, but taking wealth from the node and sending it back home. Make the fleet sail the distance too so it is visible what is actually going on (same with gold fleets). Would really love this.

I agree. Europe's involvement in Asia, should not revolve around conquest, but rather some kind of Influence mechanic that may result in land changing hands, but more importantly provide a major trade impact. This would also be a great way to offset on nation taking control of the trade routes to Europe

 

[sbalani]

What OP said, isn't in total historically correct. Ok, I know there's this Wiki map. But as others have mentioned, even far after 1550 european presence was nearly only coastal. And this is not only true for Africa and Asia, but for Americas, too.
The Spanish destroyed the great native nations, robbed and plundered them, then they went for gold and silver mines and some plantations and they had ports to transfer the stuff to Europe. They did not bring that much population to the New World, especially not when seen in comparison to the wide lands they claimed. Calim is a key word. many territories in the cited map were claimed, but not controlled, not to speak of being colonized. For many parts Spain and later Mexico held, it needed the USA to bring significant population there (Florida, Texas, New Mexico, California). The Portuguese did the same, but to a lesser extent than the Spanish. French were similar and started later, also were set back several times by war losses and stuff.
Only the British did do a significant colonisation, but this started in 17th century and was really going in the second half of it and in 18th century.
For Africa, there's nearly no significant colonisation, beside of the Dutch in South Africa. In Asia, there wasn't any.
What most people miss, also because popular history doesn't mention it, the Europeans needed much time to become big players in India and rest of Asia. In 16th and also for most of 17th century, most of the trade in Indian ocean was between the nations there. It isn't well known, because most historians are from european origin and study european sources to understand the history there. So you need to go to specialists for Indian history. Ten years ago I had 2 classes at university held by experts for Indian history. That's what I took out of it.
The european dominance in Asia started late 18th century with the British, others following in 19th century. So it's mostly not EUIV time frame, but Victorias. At that time, Europeans had lost most of their American colonies already. And how strong the control of Africa was, you can see by regarding the fact, that Inner African exploration (!) was finished in 19th century. What you haven't explored, you can't control.
So long story short, what EUIV colonisation represents at the moment, isn't so far from historical reality.

That's kind of what my point was though, with regards to Asia. We went from All out mass colonization, to absolutely no European presence in Asia without player involvement. What I think I (and others) are hoping for, is a more realistic implementation that allows european nations to take the middle road, by establishing an Asian presence that does not involve colonizing the bajeezers out of it, or having no presence at all. Previously the colonization free for all, was a great late game mechanic, as the AI nations would turn their sights from the Americas to Asia, as you raced with them to dominate Asia. It would be great if that could be replaced by a trade dominance mechanic, as well as give you an excuse to spend mana elsewhere. As one of the unintended consequences of European Nations not going after Asia anymore, is, those resources can now be spent on the Americas. Once again since Asia began to have more countries, I've never lost a single North American Colony, as i have an excess of points to keep dumping into infrastructure & troops in my colonies, that they never rebel...whereas previously, I would move these into Asia in the late game, resulting in me needing to lower tariffs or let go of my colonial nations.

 

[Robert de Bruce]

Hm, I read somewhere soneone said Pdox don't care about having historical accuracy past 1600. Before that you nearly had no real european presence in Asia. Later on within the game time frame it concentrated mostly on India and Indonesia. The chinese tributary system was not knocked out before mid 19th century, so Korea, Manchuria and Indochina were blocked for Europeans. Same counts for the Japanese isolation.
Seeing Euros in India is not this common in current patch, I saw it more frequently in previous patches. Euros getting footholds in Indonesia is still common and I think if I would not touch the AI too much at this point, they would also conquer more in Indonesia. Maybe they would also push into India past 1700 if I hadn't conquered India all for myself then.

 

[CheesySnake]

Also good luck getting AI Portugal a single province in India in any game ever. They would get smashed.

Don't Portugal get an event to annex Goa if they've discovered it and it's in colony range?

 

[frolix42]

I'm strongly in favor of rebalancing Europe/ROTW in the late game. A big part of this era was, like it or not, was European colonization. And not just European colonization of the Americas.

In older versions of the game, AI European nations used to make some progress in colonizing India. With the implementation of "Institutions", the Far-East is too close to European technology in the late game. The situation in India is not as bad as it is in Monolith Ming, which often leads the words in Technology in the late game, but EU4 India is still too advanced in the late game.

It's pretty unfortunate that Institutions, while a more nuanced sytem than Tech Groups, does a poor job in modeling realistic historical Institutional development.

I'm not expert in British conquest of India, but it seems that it partly happened during EU timeframe, so more direct conquest could be also possible if circumstances are favourable.

In reality the British conquest of inland India began in earnest with the annexation of Bengal in 1758 and was irreversible with the total British victory over the Marathas in 1815. So by the end of EU4's timeframe the British had conquered most of India. Sindh held out until 1843. The Sikhs held out until 1846.

 

[eon47]

I wouldn't mind seeing some sort of "colonial tradition" mechanic in the game. Basically, the longer and more actively a country explores and colonizes, the better it should be at doing those things as a result of established colonial practices, skilled navigators, etc. That would very naturally keep that England-in-Zanzibar situation someone else mentioned and incline Portugal and Spain to colonial dominance without guaranteeing it. Right now, colonial range sort of works to do this, but because it becomes moot so quickly, colonial tradition would represent the competitive edge the Iberian countries had. By capping it, you could also represent the ability of countries like England and the Netherlands catching up in their ability to establish and maintain colonies.