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f1nalstand17

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No state can exist when majority of population hate the system.No amount of repression will keep such state alive. It is one of profound misconceptions in history,

True, but this hatred has to be used effectively or it will amount to nothing. That's what happened with the SU, many, many people hated it, but they lacked the will of another bloody revolution, and there was no great opportunity to even overthrow Stalin. The worst dictators always end up being the best to solidify their power. Thus, when the Germans launched Barbarossa, many people greeted them with open arms and even volunteered (many Russian units that volunteered only surrendered the day that Germany surrendered) because they thought the Germans would help them overthrow the Stalinist system. This enthusiasm ended after only a few short days when the Wehrmacht and SS showed their true colors, which ultimately drove the people to the Soviets.
 

CruelDwarf

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True, but this hatred has to be used effectively or it will amount to nothing. That's what happened with the SU, many, many people hated it, but they lacked the will of another bloody revolution, and there was no great opportunity to even overthrow Stalin.
When significant of population hate the system revolutions happens. This is not about using hatred effectively - the states just collapse because people will not do the biddings of the government. USSR indeed collapsed but 50 years later and not through hatred but through apathy of people.

The worst dictators always end up being the best to solidify their power.
No, they didn't. The problem with the worst dictators is that they are usually very popular amongst their subjects. It was the case with Hitler. It was the case with Napoleon. It was the case with Stalin. I think that this idea about "people hate dictators" comes from german post-war self-justification as "we did not do this willingly, Hitler forced us to do this". And this idea projected on other countries and people.

Thus, when the Germans launched Barbarossa, many people greeted them with open arms and even volunteered (many Russian units that volunteered only surrendered the day that Germany surrendered) because they thought the Germans would help them overthrow the Stalinist system.
If you look at what lands germans invaded first you will understand why people here greeted the germans as liberators. These lands wer Baltic states and western regions of Belorussia and Ukraine, which were only recently incorporated into the Soviet Union with significant amount of repression towards locals. So these people really did not like soviets very much. Western ukrainians for example used this opprotunity to almost completly cleanse their lands from jews and poles, so they hated not only soviets but just foreigners, aliens.

And no, very little of russian volounteer units fought to the end. Most of them (like infamous Russian Liberation Army (ROA) of general Vlasov) just run from the advancing soviets as fast as possible, looting and pillaging on the way. They attacked even their former masters in their attempt to surrender to americans. For example chief of staff of ROA was executed by czech partisans because of what his troops did outside of Prague. Volunteer cossack units were stationed in the Yugoslavia through all the war and were so reviled by the local populace so majority of them preferred the soviet court to yugoslavian one. Other similar units (like georgian volunteer troops) were used in the defense of Atlantic wall where they surrendered to the americans outright.

So if you look at the matter closely you will see that practically no units formed from soviet citizens (excluding the various baltic SS formations) were used in the Eastern front in combat roles. Most of these volunteer formations were used in counter-partisan duties. Another fine example was a Kaminskiy's brigade. Its commander (Kaminskiy, soviet citizen but half-german half-pole by birth) alongside with majority of his staff was shot by SS because of his brutality during supression of Warsaw rebellion. It is a real accomplishment to be too brutal for the SS.

So these glorious fighters against bolshevik's yoke in fact were bunch of psychos, murderers and traitors which were never considered by germans for possible combat roles.

This enthusiasm ended after only a few short days when the Wehrmacht and SS showed their true colors, which ultimately drove the people to the Soviets.
It is a myth. Soviets fought with determination right from the start. In fact combat reports of gemran units from the beginning of the war stated that there was a very few prisoners taken at the start because soviet troops fought fiercly. Soviet units surrendered only after being encircled and cut off from others. And this is a not a small feat for an army of barely trained conscripts with serious shortage of officers.
 

olm

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When significant of population hate the system revolutions happens.
Well built up repression system can prevent revolutions just fine, although such systems can end up collapsing very fast then state starts appearing weak or soft. Saddam Hussein, Pol Pot, North Korea regime, apartheid South Africa none collapsed due popular revolution.
USSR indeed collapsed but 50 years later and not through hatred but through apathy of people.
Whole collapse of Soviet Union started then people realized that voicing your opposition doesn't result automatic imprisonment/execution/deportation/psychiatric ward anymore.
No, they didn't. The problem with the worst dictators is that they are usually very popular amongst their subjects. It was the case with Hitler.
Hitler didn't significantly repress Germans themselves.
It was the case with Napoleon.
Napoleon was a warring monarch at time of warring monarchs, except he won more often than anyone else.
I think that this idea about "people hate dictators" comes from german post-war self-justification as "we did not do this willingly, Hitler forced us to do this". And this idea projected on other countries and people.
"People hate dictators" come from the fact that lots of dictators need to build large repression machines to keep population under control. Not saying that dictator cant be popular (Hitler would have probably easily won fair elections in early 1939), but saying that dictator must be popular because there is no revolution in silly.
 

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If you look at what lands germans invaded first you will understand why people here greeted the germans as liberators. These lands wer Baltic states and western regions of Belorussia and Ukraine, which were only recently incorporated into the Soviet Union with significant amount of repression towards locals. So these people really did not like soviets very much. Western ukrainians for example used this opprotunity to almost completly cleanse their lands from jews and poles, so they hated not only soviets but just foreigners, aliens.

And no, very little of russian volounteer units fought to the end. Most of them (like infamous Russian Liberation Army (ROA) of general Vlasov) just run from the advancing soviets as fast as possible, looting and pillaging on the way. They attacked even their former masters in their attempt to surrender to americans. For example chief of staff of ROA was executed by czech partisans because of what his troops did outside of Prague. Volunteer cossack units were stationed in the Yugoslavia through all the war and were so reviled by the local populace so majority of them preferred the soviet court to yugoslavian one. Other similar units (like georgian volunteer troops) were used in the defense of Atlantic wall where they surrendered to the americans outright.

So if you look at the matter closely you will see that practically no units formed from soviet citizens (excluding the various baltic SS formations) were used in the Eastern front in combat roles. Most of these volunteer formations were used in counter-partisan duties. Another fine example was a Kaminskiy's brigade. Its commander (Kaminskiy, soviet citizen but half-german half-pole by birth) alongside with majority of his staff was shot by SS because of his brutality during supression of Warsaw rebellion. It is a real accomplishment to be too brutal for the SS.

So these glorious fighters against bolshevik's yoke in fact were bunch of psychos, murderers and traitors which were never considered by germans for possible combat roles.


It is a myth. Soviets fought with determination right from the start. In fact combat reports of gemran units from the beginning of the war stated that there was a very few prisoners taken at the start because soviet troops fought fiercly. Soviet units surrendered only after being encircled and cut off from others. And this is a not a small feat for an army of barely trained conscripts with serious shortage of officers.

You are right only the baltics could be used in real combat.I admire the Russian soldiers for their willingless to always fight eaven in very hard situations.As many German veteran soldiers who had fought in east and west said the spoiled Americans are nothing
to fight against but the Russians they are terrible warriors to meet.
 

f1nalstand17

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CruelDwarf said:
It is a myth. Soviets fought with determination right from the start. In fact combat reports of gemran units from the beginning of the war stated that there was a very few prisoners taken at the start because soviet troops fought fiercly. Soviet units surrendered only after being encircled and cut off from others. And this is a not a small feat for an army of barely trained conscripts with serious shortage of officers.

What does that have to do with anything? Are you purposefully trying twist my words into meanings that were never meant? I meant that the enthusiasm of the population for the German's ended after Wehmacht and SS brutality started. Soviet soldiers mass-surrendered due to either shock or being sorounded. But in no way did the Sovier soldiers fight as fiercely at the start of Barbarossa as they did when the German brutality was heard as well as Soviet propaganda exploiting this.
 

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What does that have to do with anything? Are you purposefully trying twist my words into meanings that were never meant? I meant that the enthusiasm of the population for the German's ended after Wehmacht and SS brutality started.
There was not a much of enthusiasm from the beginning if you exclude newly acquirred soviet posessions like Baltics, Western Belorussia and Poland. Quite contrary the very beginning of the war was followed by very great surge of patriotic fervor, people volunteered into the military en masse because they expected a short war in which invaders will be thrown back and Soviet Union will free enslaved countries of Europe (this was an expectation of average soviet citizen at the very start of the war). This feeling was blunted by defeats and quick german progress. In fact the month from august to october were probably the worst in terms of soviet morale both in civilian and military senses.
But again practically no one in Soviet Union itself were expecting the germans to free anyone. There was enough people who remembered the germans from the First World War (and they weren't remembered fondly). There was twenty years of soviet rule during which people were much indoctrinated to believe that Germany (or Britain and France) will attack USSR sometimes to destroy it and return "the old ways".

Try to think - so many people in the western countries still believe in that nonesense that Soviet Union wanted to invade Europe and enslave its people. They believe in this to this day. Do you really think that soviets were so much worse in propaganda that western countries?

But in no way did the Sovier soldiers fight as fiercely at the start of Barbarossa as they did when the German brutality was heard as well as Soviet propaganda exploiting this.
They fought to the death from the start when they have the means to do it. Germans accounts are full of stories about tankers who refused to surrender inside their disabled vehicles for example. The only practical difference between the start of the war and its middle and late parts is amount of brutality, but in this regards soviets indeed were able if not to catch up, but to come close to the german levels.
 

f1nalstand17

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There was not a much of enthusiasm from the beginning if you exclude newly acquirred soviet posessions like Baltics, Western Belorussia and Poland. Quite contrary the very beginning of the war was followed by very great surge of patriotic fervor, people volunteered into the military en masse because they expected a short war in which invaders will be thrown back and Soviet Union will free enslaved countries of Europe (this was an expectation of average soviet citizen at the very start of the war). This feeling was blunted by defeats and quick german progress. In fact the month from august to october were probably the worst in terms of soviet morale both in civilian and military senses.
But again practically no one in Soviet Union itself were expecting the germans to free anyone. There was enough people who remembered the germans from the First World War (and they weren't remembered fondly). There was twenty years of soviet rule during which people were much indoctrinated to believe that Germany (or Britain and France) will attack USSR sometimes to destroy it and return "the old ways".

Try to think - so many people in the western countries still believe in that nonesense that Soviet Union wanted to invade Europe and enslave its people. They believe in this to this day. Do you really think that soviets were so much worse in propaganda that western countries?


They fought to the death from the start when they have the means to do it. Germans accounts are full of stories about tankers who refused to surrender inside their disabled vehicles for example. The only practical difference between the start of the war and its middle and late parts is amount of brutality, but in this regards soviets indeed were able if not to catch up, but to come close to the german levels.

This argument seems to to be running in circles and is becoming pointless. When Barbarossa commenced did anyone wholeheartedly believe that Germany would free them? The answer is no. But did anyone hope? Absolutely.

In regards to Soviet troops fighting fiercely: Is that why by November of 1941 some 2 million Soviet soldiers were captured? Because they fought to the death?
 

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This argument seems to to be running in circles and is becoming pointless. When Barbarossa commenced did anyone wholeheartedly believe that Germany would free them? The answer is no. But did anyone hope? Absolutely.

In regards to Soviet troops fighting fiercely: Is that why by November of 1941 some 2 million Soviet soldiers were captured? Because they fought to the death?
There is no argument here. There are some fantastical posts claiming absurd German liberation whatifs without any regard to reality whatsoever made with cringeworthy lack of knowledge of the matter, and occasional response by Cruel Dwarf pointing mistakes in it, which apparently has no effect, because handwavium is the best.
 

f1nalstand17

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There is no argument here. There are some fantastical posts claiming absurd German liberation whatifs without any regard to reality whatsoever made with cringeworthy lack of knowledge of the matter, and occasional response by Cruel Dwarf pointing mistakes in it, which apparently has no effect, because handwavium is the best.

Treating human beings as humans is an absurd what-if? Pointing out that something different could have happened in history that actually did is a "cringeworthy lack of knowledge of the matter"? I suppose that you also think that there was no way for the Soviets to crush the German's earlier and actually reach the Rhine? If anyone here doesn't believe that history could not have played out any differently then I seriously question why you are on a what-if forum other than to troll.
 

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Absurd whatif is one where reasons for historical happening (like Wehrmacht requisitioning food in USSR) are ignored or handwaved away instead of being adressed with a argument how they could be handled/progressed/happened differently.

The lack of historical knowledge is in the assumptions about Soviet population attitude towards the state, as the Nazi view that it was rotten collosus that would crash down if the front door were kicked were accurate in any way. For example, because as i said, other were repeatedly pointed out, mostly to be ignored.

I actually think Germany could have won the war, given enough divergence, but not in the way that is presnted here. Posing as a liberators, or honestly acting so would likely make the matter worse from Nazi military perspective.

By the way, an unrelated nitpick: this is not what if forum, its general history forum, alternative scenarios are minority here.
 
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No state can exist when majority of population hate the system.No amount of repression will keep such state alive. It is one of profound misconceptions in history,

I don't know for the USSR, but Poland is the example totally denying your point. The absolute majority hated the system from the very beginning.
 

f1nalstand17

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Absurd whatif is one where reasons for historical happening (like Wehrmacht requisitioning food in USSR) are ignored or handwaved away instead of being adressed with a argument how they could be handled/progressed/happened differently.

I actually think Germany could have won the war, given enough divergence, but not in the way that is presnted here. Posing as a liberators, or honestly acting so would likely make the matter worse from Nazi military perspective.

By the way, an unrelated nitpick: this is not what if forum, its general history forum, alternative scenarios are minority here.

Ok, it seems that I was quite unclear about what I meant with the Germans acting as liberators. There are multiple schools of thought on this. Some historians think that the German's should've armed the population of the SU to help fight against the Soviets. Now some (especially CruelDwarf) argue that this could not be done by the winter of '41, while others think that there was a chance/way. Since I'm not as knowledgeable about this to argue for either sides I argued something else. I argued that the German's should've at least treat the population at least better than they historically did.

This is very possible because it does not take much to treat the population as humans, rather than "nothing". As CruelDwarf has mentioned, some Wehrmacht units needed to pillage the lands for food/supplies. Again, I'm not knowledgable enough to completely argue against not for this thought, so my answer is that the German's could still do this, but still be able to treat the population better, not as brutally as they did.

My overall point of this, is that by doing this, they would at least be able to hold some content for the population, thus not driving them into the arms of Stalin. Also, this is very important as it would alleviate the supply line, as well as dramatically decrease the number of partisans.
 

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I don't know for the USSR, but Poland is the example totally denying your point. The absolute majority hated the system from the very beginning.
Not in my experience, unless you meant that usual grumbling, which is our national custom, equals hating the system. Or that Niesolowski antics with monuments in the seventies were representative of anything.

The above is not about the beginning, but more about the end, i probably should say it explicitly. I would hazard a guess that in the eighties, the attitudes were in general less polarized that they were in the 45-56.
 

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This is all nonsense btw if Guderian keeped up driving on Moscow and the Italians didnt botch it up Germany would have won the war without any doubt or sweat.
 

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Grandpa Maur
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This is all nonsense btw if Guderian keeped up driving on Moscow and the Italians didnt botch it up Germany would have won the war without any doubt or sweat.
Again, poor Italians blamed again for everything... oh well ;(

Btw, Graf, on a mostly unrelated note, i wanted to ask you this since some time, do you know that Swabian is an (rather old and increasingly archaic nowadays) insult in Polish? I mean, the way Jap or Nip is/was. No idea how it happened, given Swabia is on the opposite of Germany from Poland.
 

pithorr

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Not in my experience, unless you meant that usual grumbling, which is our national custom, equals hating the system. Or that Niesolowski antics with monuments in the seventies were representative of anything.

The above is not about the beginning, but more about the end, i probably should say it explicitly. I would hazard a guess that in the eighties, the attitudes were in general less polarized that they were in the 45-56.

I don't exactly know what you mean but that is quite common true here that commies had very limited support even in 1940s, what was eventually ruined by the end of 1950s due to Stalinist style crimes of the regime.
 

Amallric

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Again, poor Italians blamed again for everything... oh well ;(

Btw, Graf, on a mostly unrelated note, i wanted to ask you this since some time, do you know that Swabian is an (rather old and increasingly archaic nowadays) insult in Polish? I mean, the way Jap or Nip is/was. No idea how it happened, given Swabia is on the opposite of Germany from Poland.

Swabians settled all around Eastern Europe. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Danube_Swabians
 

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Grandpa Maur
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I don't exactly know what you mean but that is quite common true here that commies had very limited support even in 1940s, what was eventually ruined by the end of 1950s due to Stalinist style crimes of the regime.
I mean most people did not hate the system. Sure, they thought it was flawed and in need of serious improvement (which is interestingly, not very different from what Soviet soldiers thought in the 1940s, there was a lot of expectation that after the war that things will change for the better, this was a theme in the book i mentioned in the other thread, Ivans War, ant the other book i forgot to mention, named Stalin soldiers or something like that). Consider how Solidarity was about socialism with human face, for example.

I think there was less support, or at least the hardcore opposition, was stronger in the 1940s, thought it is only a guess, based on what should happen when a completely new system is pushed on from above in new country. A lot of people are going to strongly oppose it. Not so much when the situation is already settled in (i suppose USSR situation was somewhat in the middle in 1941).

Now, to get back to what CD said, its about whether a system can survive people hating it. Well, first, i guess it can given enough repression, but, more to the point, if i think hate means what i think - willingness to join the opposition - then i both agree with it, and think that such situation was not a situation in Poland even at the beginning.