Why form Kingdom of Jerusalem?

[TheMeInTeam]

It would be easier if the Reformation didn't consistently happen so early. For something that happened in 1517, it sure happens in the 1490s a lot, which puts a really big time crunch on forming Jerusalem.

Yeah, that makes a big difference because you could get to ADM 8 for the 1% conversion decision, stacked with another .5%, 2% base, and 1% theologian decision to get 5% strength with 1 stability. That means even without an inquisitor you could get progress on Jerusalem without relying on divine supremacy, which opens up your options. I suppose if you want to live dangerously you could pass then revoke restraint of appeals if you get a 4 DIP ruler, probably not applicable to Cyprus though ^_^.

Do you know of any nations that can be conquered somewhat reliably that open with religious ideas? We can turn them Catholic if need be. Syria gets them 2nd (again, if we had until 1517 we could use this perhaps), and we can't see the Arabians that take it 1st.

Not having to take religious makes the dogpile war on Mamluks at lot more doable due to ADM's 6 FL boost on the available mercs (and the event giving another +100% for 12 extra FL sometimes) or trade's extra money + ability to spam out 20+ galleys and cause shenanigans, not to mention if you do get a footing trade will really take off quickly. I wouldn't mind purging heresy on Theodoro or BYZ but they don't open religious 1st either I don't think.

I sometimes take "Advancement of True Religion", just depends on what kind of game I'm playing. But an inquisitor was usually sufficient in my experience. And the nations I'd usually do it with were GEN and VEN, who could usually accomplish it before the Reformation, without too much trouble. I mean, they still can. But why would they? Just too expensive, now, for the non-existent benefit.

Inquisitor and positive stability are sufficient, but we have a narrow time frame to do this and for the nations that want to do it, probably an even more narrow window of owning the provinces at all. I prefer coming up with reliable strategies whenever possible, things that will at least USUALLY work, and hoping for an inquisitor to happen to be there in the 2nd or 3rd batch of advisors isn't something I'd like to stake an attempt on doing, especially when we've not come close to exhausting possible alternatives.

If you're larger getting Syrian accepted is a bit of an assumption too. For someone like the Knights or Cyprus with not much tax it almost certainly will be, but not for Venice. But I'm kind of looking at this as a formable for those two and ignoring the rest as it's an amusing thing you can do without utility.

 

[Xinkc]

I guess some people really like the ugly color that Jerusalem gets. That's at least one reason to form the nation. Other than that, it's a neat little thing to do. Too bad there isn't an achievement for forming Jerusalem. Would be better than march one, in my opinion.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I guess some people really like the ugly color that Jerusalem gets. That's at least one reason to form the nation. Other than that, it's a neat little thing to do. Too bad there isn't an achievement for forming Jerusalem. Would be better than march one, in my opinion.

It'd be a nasty piece of work too, though easier than some of the existing ones so reasonable.

If I can find a nation to feed to convert Jerusalem proper, I'd be happy to bait the Mamluks to land offshores to siege out some vassal of mine (maybe even abusing Cyprus as the target) and then strand their army there, but that would take some setup. I'm thinking especially as knights it might be best to stomp on the Ottomans using Venice, make some vassal in Greece, bait the Mamluks into landing there to siege them, and then landing on their mainland and ripping them up, but to do this you need trade for the navy and so I'd need luck or a converter to actually swap the province.

 

[RobRoy3]

Look at it this way: before, the "reward," in terms of utility gained, was already negative. That is, you would actually lose utility by accomplishing this. It is still negative, it's just that the cost is ever so slightly higher. Does it really matter? If I'm going to do it at all, my decision was never going to be based on cost-benefit because it was always bad, so this change really changes nothing. And even in terms of difficulty, it changes very little because the real difficulty was always in conversion, not conquest.

Granted the (non-existent or negative) benefits haven't changed, but I'd disagree on the costs. Sure, the bottleneck always was, and still is, the conversion. But for some nations, trying to force their way through to the Indian Ocean, Jerusalem was a minor detour. If they, say, had an Inquisitor, could absorb the OE for a bit, and had an idle missionary, the "cost" was pretty close to non-existent, too (matching the non-existent "benefit", I guess). And it was mildly entertaining to do something interesting and "difficult", even if it didn't really matter much to your nation (or the game as a whole). Now, you're talking about 165-220 ADM points, and more/longer OE, at a minimum, if you want to enact the KOJ decision. Sure, that's only slightly higher in the grand scheme of things, but ADM is too precious to throw away, particularly in that phase of the game.

But, no, doesn't really matter. Indeed, with the other changes, a player is better off, now, since he's got more alternatives, which ARE somewhat attractive. If you've taken extra provinces form the Mamluks, the Syria or Lebanon options give you a nice vassal with decent ideas, who'll now be happy to take same-cultured KOJ provinces. It just seems a bit of a shame, and a completely unnecessary to make it so unattractive to create the KOJ (assuming you can) (assuming not KNI/CYP).

If you're larger getting Syrian accepted is a bit of an assumption too. For someone like the Knights or Cyprus with not much tax it almost certainly will be, but not for Venice. But I'm kind of looking at this as a formable for those two and ignoring the rest as it's an amusing thing you can do without utility.

Yeah, you're looking at it as a tag switch decision for KNI/CYP. I'm more focused on the traditional KOJ decision. The traditional spun-off KOJ would have one province (now three), so they'd accept the local culture, much like the Crusader minors on the Greek isles. Really are two different decisions, the more I think about it.

 

[TheMeInTeam]

I fink KoJ pretty unattractive even as Knights/Cyprus. It forces you to commit to 0 religious unity and less income for a long time and steers your conquest into a more difficult region to conquer and hold, where the naval advantage you can potentially project is less significant. Compare that to leveraging Venitian navy into conquering Ottoman lands (and having enough navy the 2nd time to do it yourself), going Orthodox after getting the alliance for 100% religious unity and then having tons of accessible Orthodox land to grab at Ottoman + Byz expense, far less pressure to take religious first, and a faster power spike and it's a big difference. You can do that minus the religion switch and still go for Mamluks, but crippling Ottomans that badly makes piggybacking them to take Mamluks implausible and doesn't spike your power enough in time to solo Mamluks, especially if they take Karaman + Ryazan instead of Ottos. I guess you could discourage this by repeatedly declaring on the Mamluks also and taking their trade power to hinder them lol.

But you get nothing for KoJ beyond owning the provinces without the swap, aside from a capitol move that won't be very relevant if you can just do something like moving it to Constantinople.

 

[RobRoy3]

I fink KoJ pretty unattractive even as Knights/Cyprus...

Probably. I'm focusing on the added costs. Presumably, if you're going that way with KNI/CYP, you've decided that's going to be your area of expansion, for whatever reason. In that case, you're not necessarily pissing away Admin points, you'd be keeping the provinces. Assuming all that, it's basically a neutral decision for them; maybe even a plus, if you want the free capital shift.

When I play KNI/CYP, I usually go after the Turks, too, though, generally having culture shifted to Greek. Was more fun to form BYZ when you could keep the Knight's ideas, though.

 

[Te. Kenzo]

Becouse is cool.

 

[kvk]

Cool cool! the rule of cool is everything (and because flavor and spice, it's a goal, it's something to do, it's a sign of your superiority over the stupid ai!)