Since I like the coronation system in CK 2 plus, I would be very happy if you could implement it in HIP
Why don't you implement a "crowned" trait, as in CK 2 plus ?
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Personally, I've always felt it was kind of an unnecessary sort of feature. But, that aside, I do know that ziji is thinking about adding something like that to EMF which (I think) would be a bit simpler than the system in CKII+ and would ideally fit HIP's style, but you'd have to ask him for details.
There could be some sort of event chain where the coronation process was vital for kingship, like in France, Jerusalem and Hungary. And an HRE coronation thingy which makes you be Emperor instead of just King. I think a select few kingdoms could really profit from some sort of individual coronation chain distinct from that of other countries, which would make me genuinely feel like I am playing as eg. France and indeed no other kingdom due to the Oriflamme being involved. That would be nice.
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Yes, I at least want to implement Imperial Coronation (with a mechanic whereby no other Christian emperor can be crowned at the same time) in EMF.
I don't want to do what CK2Plus does, because I don't find it historically plausible that every Christian king needs to be crowned by their respective religious head in order to effectively run a kingdom and pass crown laws. That also leads to a lot of generic flavor that doesn't make sense for some kingdoms. Also penalizes heretics incredibly.
I would be interested in specific kingdom coronation mechanics. Unfortunately, I don't actually know much specifics at all about historical kingdom-level coronation even in France (at the moment).
You'll notice that there is already a placeholder definition of a 'crowned' trait in EMF's traits files, so yeah, this is on the TODO.
I don't want to do what CK2Plus does, because I don't find it historically plausible that every Christian king needs to be crowned by their respective religious head in order to effectively run a kingdom and pass crown laws. That also leads to a lot of generic flavor that doesn't make sense for some kingdoms. Also penalizes heretics incredibly.
I would be interested in specific kingdom coronation mechanics. Unfortunately, I don't actually know much specifics at all about historical kingdom-level coronation even in France (at the moment).
You'll notice that there is already a placeholder definition of a 'crowned' trait in EMF's traits files, so yeah, this is on the TODO.
I was working on a HRE coronation submod today, actually, ran across this placeholder trait, then ran across this thread. So much for that idea :/
I'm not sure how speculative HIP in general wants to be, but at least in the era covered by CK2 I'm not aware of any post-Ottonian Holy Roman Emperor who was not from the "de jure HRE." Are you thinking you'd open up the possibility of the one crowned emperor being from another realm?
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Yes. Just as the HRE / Charlemagne was given Papal blessing instead of the ERE, it seems plausible that, were the HRE to no longer / never exist or fall out of favor in preference to another Catholic empire, that Catholic emperor could receive the blessing of the Pope under certain conditions.
Sounds interesting, so how do you plan on it working will other catholic empire tier titles still be formable with penalties that being crowned removes? Also will each emperor have to be crowned individually with the Pope maybe refusing as I think was the case in CK2+?
Wow, sounds awesome! Sooo... Ahistorically historical (a.k.a. plausible) ;DD Ya know, all this personal bickering of kings, popes, emperors, 'me no rike remonade' and such... Great
That would make for some very interesting ballance with antipopes.
Afterall, the pope would probably rather not crown you if you're running an antipope. But could an antipope crown you? Would it be the same thing, or not as good, but still ok?
Like if the pope doesn't like you, could you make an antipope and have him crown you?
I should certainly hope so! The whole point of standing up an antipope is to make him do popey things for you.
I haven't decided yet what penalties a non-crowned Catholic emperor will have or what bonuses a crowned Catholic emperor will have. I think I'd like to focus more upon bonuses (such as making it easier to get rid of that silly HRE Decentralization law, and so on), because I don't want players to be barred from creating an empire title when they're capable of it because it will suddenly incur penalties upon their whole realm that they'd not otherwise had if they just remained multi-kings. I mean, generally speaking, when a title becomes creatable, it should be a good thing for you. And you shouldn't have to already have the Papal blessing to create the empire in the first place (kind of kills the point and is not terribly historical or fun).
And, yeah, the Pope can certainly refuse (potentially leaving no Catholic empire officially blessed by the Pope for a long time, but I imagine the Pope will prefer to stick with whichever empire is the 'incumbent,' so to speak).
Wow, sounds awesome! Sooo... Ahistorically historical (a.k.a. plausible) ;DD Ya know, all this personal bickering of kings, popes, emperors, 'me no rike remonade' and such... Great
Plausibility beats historicity here. But, honestly, what's 'historical' if you start in 769 or 867 when the HRE hasn't even formed yet? It'd be railroading if only the HREmperor could be coronated the protector of the Roman Catholic Church, especially if he never came to even exist. This is especially true for 769 when the Pope is still reluctantly recognizing the ERE as the One True Christian Empire.
Yeah, this is intentional. Certainly, if you support an antipope and push his claim against the Papacy (making him the Pope and no longer an antipope), he's going to be a lot more likely to crown you (especially if you're his liege now). And, certainly, the Pope will not want to crown an emperor with an antipope. But, no, antipopes (those that are still secular and haven't had their Papacy claim successfully pushed) probably can't crown you until they're the Real Deal, as recognized by Catholic rulers generally.
This also implies that we may take steps to have an uncrowned AI emperor (say, of the HRE) actually push the claim of an antipope if another emperor is crowned (rather than just letting them sit there until they're eventually deposed) in an attempt to regain their status. Of course, a Pope who has been installed by an emperor will only prefer that emperor for his lifetime (although, again, there should be some favoritism toward tradition / whichever empire is the incumbent).
Indeed.
Honestly, I'll be happy as long as there's a coronation event, a la Friedrich Barbarossa, that asks me whether I want to hold the Pope's stirrup as he dismounts.
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Felt the need to correct here. The system in CK2Plus has every king get crowned by a priest in his realm. Only the HRE (and, by extension the Carolingian Empire) and the ERE involve the religion heads, and in the ERE heretics can (as of the latest Plus release) be crowned via the normal non-religion-head system.