Why Doesn't AI Burgundy Dominate?

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Ifernat and others gave a great explanation as to why the AI does so well as Austria, and I have a similar question in my mind: why does the AI often do so poorly as Burgundy? As a long-time player of EU3 I can't think of many countries (Vanilla Ming?) that are easier than the economic and military juggernaut that is Burgundy: fantastic sliders, several provinces for quick troop-building, two non-HRE victims to decimate right on your borders (France and England) and a good chance to become the HRE if you keep your infamy down (and Burgundy's already appreciable manpower and force limits go bonkers if you're the HRE). France is bigger, but easy to beat with your superior armies, and can be rapidly reduced to a few provinces and lots of vassals allied to Burgundy for very little infamy.

I have seen AI Burgundy do OK, but it quite frequently gets annexed or OPM'ed fairly early in the game, if not totally annexed by the French blob. What's the AI doing wrong?

 

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AI Burgundy dies because it fails to unite its two halves, which makes things really difficult for the AI. The AI also doesn't deal well with lots of minors invading it, which is what happens when it tries to complete its missions (another problem is that it fails to complete its missions, for example by taking one province from Brabant instead of annexing, or annexing Luxembourg when they interfere with the conquest of Hainaut). When it's struggling to fight off a legion of small HRE states, it tends to get invaded by France, and that's when it can collapse.

That said, Burgundy is often extremely successful and commonly expands West to destroy France.

 

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AI Burgundy dies because it fails to unite its two halves, which makes things really difficult for the AI. The AI also doesn't deal well with lots of minors invading it, which is what happens when it tries to complete its missions (another problem is that it fails to complete its missions, for example by taking one province from Brabant instead of annexing, or annexing Luxembourg when they interfere with the conquest of Hainaut). When it's struggling to fight off a legion of small HRE states, it tends to get invaded by France, and that's when it can collapse.

That said, Burgundy is often extremely successful and commonly expands West to destroy France.

That's very funny, because I find the OPM HRE states are so laughable as enemies, you can easily wait until they stupidly try to start sieging Burgundy and totally annihilate their entire army with one doomstack and get a white peace with no effort. You take like 30 casualties fighting them because of your unbelievable morale. Likewise with the HRE, I never send soldiers over to force a peace with Mr. Bohemia until I've won my main objectives in the West, peaced out with the minors and can turn my whole army on humiliating Bohemia (which means they usually get eaten up by Austria or Poland within a couple of months, as they have no manpower, no armies and rebels everywhere).

I've noticed that the AI tends to use its spies very poorly, inciting rebellions when I am at peace, allowing me to easily crush them...I always save up my spies until I have 5, then as soon as I get into a war with a sizable power I wait until their armies are on my borders and start revolts in all their provinces...then they get no reinforcements!

Also, if you're sieging part of a large country and want to delay the enemy while your troops move up you start a bunch of rebelions between you and the enemy army. That slows them down and weakens them when they finally get to you (it also seems to mess with the AI's strategic logic, as it starts chasing rebels instead of concentrating on the monolith that's eating the northern half of their country).

 

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You might not have problems with five or six different minors invading you at once, partly because it tries to execute the 'run-around-with-a-doomstack' strategy you described, but does it slowly so the AI minors can often successfully siege provinces.

But yeah, Burgundy does commonly get REALLY powerful.

 

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You might not have problems with five or six different minors invading you at once, partly because it tries to execute the 'run-around-with-a-doomstack' strategy you described, but does it slowly so the AI minors can often successfully siege provinces.

But yeah, Burgundy does commonly get REALLY powerful.

The computer does seem to be very 'special' when it comes to strategic maneuver, their usual tactic is to pile all their guys up in one province, so when you suddenly converygan army at another border or drop one off via transport ships they're left with their pants down. Works like a charm on Burgundy v. France, sticking 20 divisions up their rear makes the AI go schizo trying to reorganize its forces.

 

[Ifernat]

Whether Burgundy does well or not is all about the timing, and who joins what wars when (generic I know).

You mention that you have no problems with the HRE OPM swarm, I don’t think there is any player that does, the AI HOWEVER.

The AI has the same problem I noted in the Austria thread. AI Burgundy will happily sit the majority of its army on a province to take it while its own territory is getting swarmed by totally insignificant OPM mini-armies. A player would simply keep a stack rotating around to crush those tiny armies but the AI is much worse at doing so. Now against OPM’s Burgundy can typically make headway…Luxembourg and the like, once Burgundy wins the siege its over…its TPM’s like Brabant where I’ve seen Burgundy get into trouble. The Burgundy AI will move in crush the Brabant army but then as German OPMs start joining the war as allies to Brabant things get screwy. In the time it takes the Burgundy AI to siege down both provinces its has lost a few of its own to the OPM Swarm and then the AI starts playing Duck, Duck, Goose with itself. Burgundy usually wins but not before running up its WE and sowing a lot of ill will with the HRE OPM’s.

And then comes the moment of truth. Because while Burgundy was playing tag with the Dutch and Belgian OPMs their real problem next door was busy kicking England out of Aquitaine and now France usually turns its appetite to Brittany…which is allied to Burgundy…

This is usually where things go wrong for Burgundy (if they went wrong). The Brittany AI simply can’t withstand the assault by France, they are going to fold like a house of cards and they are going to wind up giving up a chunk of their country. Once that happens then France and its vassal swarm will descend on Burgundy and the two halves of the country wind up being effectively separated. Once Bar falls then the north and south halves of Burgundy will probably stop reinforcing the other. The result is typically that one half of the country will be occupied without much resistance leading to a result where France will tear off several provinces and do lasting damage to Burgundy. If the German OPMs smell blood and decide to get in on the action as well then that single war can be very costly to Burgundy. After that its typically a slow march downhill as France only gets stronger as it consolidates and Burgundy will only get weaker with each successive French attack.

Now there is a second scenario. Occasionally France gets too greedy before it turns to Brittany OR it gets sidetracked to the south and winds up fighting in Spain for a while. Often the trigger is that France will attack Provence before the England question is decided and wind up at war with a LOT of countries. Its possible that if Burgundy gets pulled in to that war, or if enough countries pursue harsh peace terms that Burgundy can make out like a bandit. Any Balkanization of France that breaks up the French vassal swarm or the French state opens the door for Burgundy to start becoming France 2.0. If Burgundy picks up any territory in East France that reinforces the bridge between its two halves then the whole gets much, much more resilient. The key though is typically the first war between France and Burgundy. If France wins then typically the result is that Burgundy will slowly be whittled down and absorbed by France. If France loses then the door opens for Burgundy.

If Burgundy didn’t have France next door then yes, its wealth and powerful missions would have us talking about the Big Purple Blob. As it is though…the Blue Blob is just too potent a neighbor unless the stars align just right.

 

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Big Purple Blob

It's burgundy, not purple (Milan is purple). Pedantic, but one more thing I love about Burgundy...awesome country, awesome sliders, cool history, great flag and its name is its map color.

But I can see your reasoning, and it makes sense. Burgundy-failing has always been strong evidence for me that the AI is an idiot. Even as a player-controlled France I've had trouble beating Burgundy down if I don't split them apart first. Their armies are just so darn good and they seem to pee ducats.

And Britanny is just one of the most f***ed countries in the game. The best strategy I've heard for them is to quickly conquer something in another part of the world so France doesn't annex you.

 

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3/4 of my campaigns Burgundy eat France and HRE minors.

 

[Ifernat]

It's burgundy, not purple (Milan is purple). Pedantic, but one more thing I love about Burgundy...awesome country, awesome sliders, cool history, great flag and its name is its map color.

But I can see your reasoning, and it makes sense. Burgundy-failing has always been strong evidence for me that the AI is an idiot. Even as a player-controlled France I've had trouble beating Burgundy down if I don't split them apart first. Their armies are just so darn good and they seem to pee ducats.

And Britanny is just one of the most f***ed countries in the game. The best strategy I've heard for them is to quickly conquer something in another part of the world so France doesn't annex you.

We already have the BBB - Big Blue Blob and the BBB - Big Brown Blob do we really want the BBB - Big Burgundian Blob...could we handle something as epic as the BBB^3.

Hah, I'm glad somebody sees the other scenario, I've seen it a few times..but I swear everytime that I play a country that's not immediately checking the growth of France they go viral.

 

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It's burgundy, not purple (Milan is purple). Pedantic, but one more thing I love about Burgundy...awesome country, awesome sliders, cool history, great flag and its name is its map color.

But I can see your reasoning, and it makes sense. Burgundy-failing has always been strong evidence for me that the AI is an idiot. Even as a player-controlled France I've had trouble beating Burgundy down if I don't split them apart first. Their armies are just so darn good and they seem to pee ducats.

And Britanny is just one of the most f***ed countries in the game. The best strategy I've heard for them is to quickly conquer something in another part of the world so France doesn't annex you.

isnt milan violet?. burgundy is an obvious threat and therefore an obvious target for france/england and HRE. the things that make them so enjoyable for the player make them unplayable for the AI.

 

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isnt milan violet?

Violet is a shade of purple, burgundy is a shade of red. Burgundy is the vin rouge par excellence.

 

[n0thin]

IIRC Burgundy gets no "Luck" modifier when you play with historic lucky nations, while Austria and France are getting it.
And while France can do pretty good comebacks (in my last game Burgundy won over France two times but got raped by HRE Austria then => in the next war, France recovered and get all their cores back), Burgundy can't really do something like that, especially if it gets owned early and loses the belgium holdings (=> cant do missions for the netherlands).
Also, Burgundy gets strong cause of their annexing missions, while France has a bunch of vassals. At the beginning, France is supported by his vassals, while Burgundy needs to complete the missions to get really strong.

 

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IIRC Burgundy gets no "Luck" modifier when you play with historic lucky nations, while Austria and France are getting it.
And while France can do pretty good comebacks (in my last game Burgundy won over France two times but got raped by HRE Austria then => in the next war, France recovered and get all their cores back), Burgundy can't really do something like that, especially if it gets owned early and loses the belgium holdings (=> cant do missions for the netherlands).
Also, Burgundy gets strong cause of their annexing missions, while France has a bunch of vassals. At the beginning, France is supported by his vassals, while Burgundy needs to complete the missions to get really strong.

It bothers me that when you put lucky nations on Random it's still the same damn nations + Byzantium.

 

[Junuxx]

Violet is a shade of purple, burgundy is a shade of red. Burgundy is the vin rouge par excellence.

Violet is a shade of violet. Purple ain't a color.

 

[vasziljevics]

And Britanny is just one of the most f***ed countries in the game. The best strategy I've heard for them is to quickly conquer something in another part of the world so France doesn't annex you.

OFF
just finished a Brittany game on very hard (posted in DW Empire thread) and I can tell you they are not so hard. their sliders are really good too. all you have to do is build up a huge navy and lend all possible assitance to burgundy in their wars (on the seas against england and on the plains against france). after that your only neighbour is Burgundy and you are free to colonise or whatever (I for instance conquered the British Isles and made them breton culture).
/OFF

 

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Violet is a shade of violet. Purple ain't a color.

Yes, it is. It's a secondary color because it is a product of additive light, but your brain is built to recognize it distinctly from red and blue and it clearly shows up on any hue chart.

If you're saying purple is not a wavelength of light, that's true; but colors are what we see, not wavelength. Color is a secondary product of our mental equipment; most of light is not a color at all (what color is a gamma ray?)

 

[Junuxx]

Gamma color. And purple is imaginary, there is only redblue.

 

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Why Burgandy does or doesn't do well depends greatly on which version of EU 3 you play, and how you the player impact the world. Burgandy was in many respects a leading power and in some respects 'the' leading power, right up until an extreme political/diplomatic blunder by the last ruler of Burgandy got him killed with no male heir. Half his country went to Austria due to the royal marriage between those two families, the other half... well, kind of obvious who got that. He was technically part of the French royal line.

 

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Burgundy is not a Lucky nation. For AI it might be a difference

 

[Junuxx]

Offensive is pretty lousy for the AI I think. Since AI-AI wars often come down to sieging contests, Offensive Burgundy will often lose.