Why does the archaeologic community say that the Greek alphabet is Phoenician?

[Enravota]

so the greek government is hiding stuff in area πενήντα μία?

afaik

 

[diegosimeone]

Herodotus according to wikipedia

The Phoenicians who came with Cadmus—amongst whom were the Gephyraei—introduced into Greece, after their settlement in the country, a number of accomplishments, of which the most important was writing, an art till then, I think, unknown to the Greeks. At first they used the same characters as all the other Phoenicians, but as time went on, and they changed their language, they also changed the shape of their letters. At that period most of the Greeks in the neighbourhood were Ionians; they were taught these letters by the Phoenicians and adopted them, with a few alterations, for their own use, continuing to refer to them as the Phoenician characters—as was only right, as the Phoenicians had introduced them.

Original: «58.Οι δε Φοίνικες ούτοι οι συν Κάδμω απικόμενοι τών ήσαν Γεφυραίοι άλλα τε πολλά οικήσαντες ταύτην την χώρην εισήγαγον διδασκάλια ες τους Έλληνας και δη και γράμματα, ουκ εόντα πριν Έλλησι ως εμοί δοκέει, πρώτα μεν τοίσι και άπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνικες· μετά δε χρόνου προβαίνοντος άμα τη φωνή μετέβαλλον και τον ρυθμόν των γραμμάτων».
«Περιοίκεον δε σφέας τα πολλά των χώρων τούτον τον χρόνον Ελλήνων Ίωνες οι παραλαβόντες διδαχή παρά των Φοινίκων τα γράμματα, μεταρυθμίσαντες σφέων ολίγα εχρέωντο, χρεώμενοι δε εφάτισαν, ώσπερ και το δίκαιον έφερε εισαγαγόντων Φοινίκων ες την Ελλάδα, Φοινίκηια κεκλήσθαι».

Actual translation: "These Phoenicians who arrived with Cadmus, including the Gefyrae, who settled many parts of this land(Greece), imported/brought with them new arts as well as an alphabet that was unknown to the Greeks, which I think(/in my opinion) all the Phoenicians were using, but with the passing of time they've(the Phoenicians) changed their language and scripture/alphabet (to the one used in Greece)."
"Many Ionian Greeks used to live in the (Phoenician) lands those days, who have taught the Phoenicians an alphabet, reforming their writing style. Knowing this, the Greeks (Boetians), have decided it was fair to call this alphabet Phoenician, as it was imported by the Phoenicians."

So Herodotus is pretty much saying/estimating the opposite thing. That the Phoenicians were taught by Ionian Greeks and that the mainland Greeks of Boetia(Aeolians, very 'weird' dialect compared to rest of Greek) called it Phoenician because Phoenician Greeks (Gefyrae) brought them with them.

This mistranslation is the origin of the Phoenician origin of the Greek alphabet. And as professor Rembroke said about the Phoenicians, it's been convenient to give them the role of the intermediary in history when they had to fill in the blanks.

The convenience in which some things are adored and some things ignored when they come from Greek history is astonishing, whether we're talking about Herodotus, Thycidides, Plato, Aristotle, Xenophon, Plutarch, Strabo or whoever... And the mistranslations are also incredible. eg Isocrates, Plato, Plutarch, Strabo, Herodotus ... Herodotus for example said that the Egyptians copied many things from the Greeks, but no one comments on that. On the other hand, a mistranslation has become gospel in the field of linguistics and anyone who tries to use the proper evidence to refute it is called a nationalist and a racist apparently....

afaik

Nah, πενήντα-ένα is correct. The number cannot be feminine in this case. Some villagers could say it that way though


P.S: Interesting fact that gets ignored. Linear B was deciphered by an architect. Michael Ventris. Not a linguist or archaeologist... So don't wait for these "expert" "scholars" to come up with something that changes the way they view things. They're not into that type of things.

 

[Yakman]

And there's also a a 500,000 year gap and a 15,000,000 year gap between parts of the theory of evolution, yet it's considered factual.

no, there isn't.

Of course there is a gap here as well.

no there isn't.

Don't you accept that it's illogical to draw the assumption that the Greek alphabet comes from Phoenicians when it's been around for over 2000 years before the emergence of the Phoenicians? Even the assumption that there was a great catastrophe that wiped out all the people but not the coins/tablets etc - as we can still find such artifacts - and that the people who appeared in the Greek mainland copied it makes more sense than the Greeks copying the Phoenicians who came from Bahrain to Tyre!

The numbers you are presenting are hogwash. They are not factual.

The Greek culture emerged thousands of years after you claim it did. You are seriously considering Plato as a historical source.

Please stop. Take a breath. Greece is a wonderful country, that contributed a ton of things to the world. it doesn't have to be the first in everything to be a wonderful country.

 

[Henry IX]

Also, there are tons of sources that suggest that the Phoenician alphabet derives from the Cretan syllabary. I'll try and get them from the original articles as I only have the Greek translated bibliography of them for the time being. Plus, there's some confusion/mistranslation with the Greek Phoenicians(eg. Cadmus) and Semitic Phoenicians(the Carthage guys, the merchants etc) when it comes to this. But still, there's no solid evidence to suggest that the alphabet came from Phoenicia. From Crete, highly probable. It definitely predates the one used in Phoenicia. Herodotus has been refuted anyway. And he's mistranslated in English if what I've seen on wikipedia is considered to be what he wrote.

The above argument seems valid to me - it is indeed possible that the first alphabetic language arose on Crete rather than on the coast of Lebanon. A quick glance at a map shows how close those areas are. The Phonecians could simply have been a means of transmission rather than the inventors. It is even plausible that the script that predated the alphabetic script was related to the earlier Minoan scripts. However, it is worth noting that the Cretans' culture in this period is NOT classical or even Minoan Greek. It was (based on the archaeology I have seen) a hybrid of Greek, Egyptian and Semetic.

None of this supports a 6000 year old alphabetic script, which no one bothered to use and instead stuck with some very problematic symbolic scripts (Sumarian script was a huge issue for speakers of Akkadian).The initial hypothesis just makes no sense. Even if the marks are some form of writing (a HUGE assumption) there is no chance that the letters would be in any way readable by a modern speaker of Greek.

 

[Eusebio]

The above argument seems valid to me - it is indeed possible that the first alphabetic language arose on Crete rather than on the coast of Lebanon. A quick glance at a map shows how close those areas are. The Phonecians could simply have been a means of transmission rather than the inventors. It is even plausible that the script that predated the alphabetic script was related to the earlier Minoan scripts. However, it is worth noting that the Cretans' culture in this period is NOT classical or even Minoan Greek. It was (based on the archaeology I have seen) a hybrid of Greek, Egyptian and Semetic.

The first evidence of alphabets or a script related to Phoenician is Proto-Sinaitic. Which itself has links to Egyptian hieroglyphs. So the innovation very likely came from/was influenced by Egypt. That makes sense since Egypt was the imperial and cultural power in the Near East at the time.

Perhaps we should mention that the letters of the Greek alphabet have Semitic etymologies. Aleph, bayt, gimel, dalet... Kind of strange if they'd already been around in Greek for 5,000 years.

 

[Herbert West]

Erm, doesn't 6000 BC pre-date the greek migrations by several millennia?

 

[Jorsalfar]

Erm, doesn't 6000 BC pre-date the greek migrations by several millennia?

Details! It's not fair to make things complicated

 

[Arilou]

there is no chance that the letters would be in any way readable by a modern speaker of Greek.

If they were readable that would be a huge red flag indicating that something is deeply wrong: No language remains unchanged for tht long.

 

[Buczkowski]

Perhaps we should mention that the letters of the Greek alphabet have Semitic etymologies. Aleph, bayt, gimel, dalet... Kind of strange if they'd already been around in Greek for 5,000 years.

Clearly the Semites are descendants of the Greeks.

 

[th3freakie]

Erm, doesn't 6000 BC pre-date the greek migrations by several millennia?

What migrations? Greeks evolved in Greece from proto-Greek prokaryotes - which, by the way, arranged themselves in shapes very similar to Greek letters.

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Original: «58.Οι δε Φοίνικες ούτοι οι συν Κάδμω απικόμενοι τών ήσαν Γεφυραίοι άλλα τε πολλά οικήσαντες ταύτην την χώρην εισήγαγον διδασκάλια ες τους Έλληνας και δη και γράμματα, ουκ εόντα πριν Έλλησι ως εμοί δοκέει, πρώτα μεν τοίσι και άπαντες χρέωνται Φοίνικες· μετά δε χρόνου προβαίνοντος άμα τη φωνή μετέβαλλον και τον ρυθμόν των γραμμάτων».
«Περιοίκεον δε σφέας τα πολλά των χώρων τούτον τον χρόνον Ελλήνων Ίωνες οι παραλαβόντες διδαχή παρά των Φοινίκων τα γράμματα, μεταρυθμίσαντες σφέων ολίγα εχρέωντο, χρεώμενοι δε εφάτισαν, ώσπερ και το δίκαιον έφερε εισαγαγόντων Φοινίκων ες την Ελλάδα, Φοινίκηια κεκλήσθαι».

Actual translation: "These Phoenicians who arrived with Cadmus, including the Gefyrae, who settled many parts of this land(Greece), imported/brought with them new arts as well as an alphabet that was unknown to the Greeks, which I think(/in my opinion) all the Phoenicians were using, but with the passing of time they've(the Phoenicians) changed their language and scripture/alphabet (to the one used in Greece)."
"Many Ionian Greeks used to live in the (Phoenician) lands those days, who have taught the Phoenicians an alphabet, reforming their writing style. Knowing this, the Greeks (Boetians), have decided it was fair to call this alphabet Phoenician, as it was imported by the Phoenicians."

So Herodotus is pretty much saying/estimating the opposite thing. That the Phoenicians were taught by Ionian Greeks and that the mainland Greeks of Boetia(Aeolians, very 'weird' dialect compared to rest of Greek) called it Phoenician because Phoenician Greeks (Gefyrae) brought them with them.

No. My Greek may be highly imperfect, but it seems evident you are mistranslating it. Your phrasing is illogical and contradictory and out-of-context. The "they" is referring to the Phoenicians who came to Greece with Cadmus, not the "other Phoenicians" (Phoenicians in Phoenicia). The Ionians lived in mainland Greece, the lands where the Phoenicians-with-Cadmus arrived (first Boeotia, then Attica, where they were expelled to - as c. 57 describes). The Ionians are ATTICA IONIANS, the Ionians in ATHENS. These Ionians were taught the alphabet by the Phoenicians, not the other way around. Your "reinterpretation" that the Ionian emigrants "taught" Phoenicians contradicts the very next phrase about importation and the prior phrase that they were ignorant of writing.

Sorry. You can go to Herodotus, Diodorus, Pliny, etc. All say the alphabet came from Phoenicians to Greece.

 

[diegosimeone]

Now they're gonna teach us how to read our own language :rofl:

Arilou, THEY ARE readable, that's the point.

 

[Abdul Goatherd]

Now they're gonna teach us how to read our own language :rofl:

Arilou, THEY ARE readable, that's the point.

Isn't "your language" Indo-European? They only arrived in Greece what, 2000 BC or thereabouts?

Obviously not your language or obviously misdated.

 

[Eusebio]

Perhaps we should mention that the letters of the Greek alphabet have Semitic etymologies. Aleph, bayt, gimel, dalet... Kind of strange if they'd already been around in Greek for 5,000 years.

I should have added that these sounds correspond to words in the Semitic language. 'Aleph' means 'ox', and Phoenician writing shows the letter A started out as an ox's head and got slowly more abstract over time until it was represented as A. But the Greeks managed to shortcut this process by several thousand years without even speaking a Semitic language! And the Phoenicians developed the exact same letters a few thousand years later without being influenced by this fully-formed Greek alphabet!

 

[diegosimeone]

The sounds between Greek and Phoenician do not correspond. Maybe 1-2 exceptions.

 

[th3freakie]

Isn't "your language" Indo-European? They only arrived in Greece what, 2000 BC or thereabouts?

Obviously not your language or obviously misdated.

I thought diego already disproved the concept of Indo-European, still back at the OT. Or am I thinking of someone else?

 

[Eusebio]

The sounds between Greek and Phoenician do not correspond. Maybe 1-2 exceptions.

I can count at least 20 corresponding sounds from Phoenician to Greek there. See also how the Phoenician letters are more representative and the Greek more abstract (which can be traced through Archaic Greek alphabets as well).

If the Greek alphabet was invented in Greece, why did they adopt Semitic names for their alphabet? Alphabet itself is a Semitic word!

 

[Enravota]

I thought diego already disproved the concept of Indo-European, still back at the OT. Or am I thinking of someone else?

Your recollection is right.

 

[Veldmaarschalk]

A whole lot of spam an OT posts have been deleted.

 

[Gordy]

I thought diego already disproved the concept of Indo-European, still back at the OT. Or am I thinking of someone else?

No, you are right, diego showed us that a handful of Greek words might have come from the near East thus totally disproving the Indo-European origin of Greek and by extension the whole edifice of Indo-European became untenable.