Why does Paradox keep saying their historical grand strategy games aren't about war?

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dbruser

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Strange take. But sure. I can agree to disagree.

Ck3 and victoria have stated that war is not a focus in the game. This is a demonstrable shift. Which is what I'm saying.

War is a major part of human history and should be just as fleshed out and important as any other mechanic. My complaint is about their demonstrable shift from that.

My hypothesis is, which is also demonstrable, that rather than deal with player complaints about AI performance they say the game is about dynasties or economic.

Doesn't seem that much of a stretch.
There's a difference between A focus of the game and THE focus.

Victoria is primarily an economic and political game focusing on the industrialization of the world and colonization of Africa. So while the primary focus is and should remain industrialization, warfare shouldn't be left too far behind. There were after all several very important conflicts in this region.

While IMO the war system is a pretty good start (if bogged down by the game hiding crucial information like combat width and terrain) and is somewhat buggy (generals always sending first troops instead of healthiest troops) there is lots of work to do still.
 
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I was gonna say that Victoria 3 is more so of an idle clicker game but decent clicker games have much more intuitive UI and competent mechanics behind it.
 
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Adam363

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Do you know what's also a major part of human history? Economics. The work people do. The food they eat.

But in every other Paradox game, this is extremely abstracted, far more than warfare is in Vicky 3.

That's hardly the only concept that's vastly important to real humans and their lives that other Paradox games abstract into literally or figuratively nothing.

So I don't think your argument here holds water.
I didn't say war should be the primary focus. I'm saying its just as important as economics and should be well developed and fleshed out.

War mechanics should be a major focus of any historical grand strategy game., since they are so prevalent and important in human history.
 
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"Warfare is not and never will be a primary focus for CK3" (Dev Diary #109 - Floor Plan for the Future)
uh, warfare definitely wasn't the focus of ck2 or 3 tbqh. tertiary at best. no one has ever recommended crusader kings due to its intricate tactical combat. and by god that's as true of 3 as it was of 2.
 
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uh, warfare definitely wasn't the focus of ck2 or 3 tbqh. tertiary at best. no one has ever recommended crusader kings due to its intricate tactical combat. and by god that's as true of 3 as it was of 2.

Ck2 had a wider variety of levies and a scaling system of Retinues

CK2's has an entire system of tactics that can affect battle outcomes quite a lot

Ck2 you had to assemble your armies, not just magically summon them anywhere in the world you had land.

Ck3 is a watered down version.
 
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Ck3 is a watered down version.
It's watered down from nothing. Whatever description you make of CK2's war system it is as simple and straightforward as it gets. Raise levies, hire mercs, deathstack the enemy. Repeat.

The twist in CK war is not the warfare system. It's the RPG mechanics. You want commanders with the right artifacts, the right culture, and so on. In Ck3 this is substituted for the right terrain for buildings and the right culture traits. Either way war is simple and straightforward in both games because there's no deep tactical gameplay. War in CK2 and 3 consist of moving one stack onto another. No, assembling levies doesn't count as deeper gameplay and it would be rather sad if it did. The reason why this is so is because war is not the primary or even the secondary focus of crusader kings. The RPG nonsense is. If you think otherwise you simply haven't played the game all that much.
 
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Adam363

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Could you explain to me how your hypothesis is demostrable again?

To be clear: your hypothesis is, as I read it, “devs have decided to claim (as a form of trickery) a different focus in each IP so they do not have to improve AI performance”.

And that’s something you can prove in spite of 1) devs demonstrably altering AI (recorded in patch notes) and 2) previous dev statements about the focus being to emphasize one part of the simulation as a design choice not as a way to hide their flaws.
Its demonstrable by a review of all the AI in their games. Which has always rcvd a wide array of criticism.

Ck3 AI not helping in wars, not building buildings

Stellaris AI not able to maintain economies

HOI AI not able to build effective armies easily steamrolled by player

etc etc...


The weakness of the AI is probably the #1 criticism of their SP games.


It seems plausible, that since they can't improve their AI, they will attempt to reduce the amount of things the AI has to do well in order to mitigate player criticism.
 
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War is the extension of state policy [diplomacy]. (C v Clausewitz)

While armed forces may be a requirement for war, they aren't the war itself.
Clausewitz has no empirical proof, just as good as any other hypothesis.

There are a lot more components, but unless BC-weapons are used it's arguably the most important, this is just my hypothesis tho

Edit: If people are disagreeing with the former part, feel free to show me Clausewitz's empirical proof.
 
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Clausewitz has no empirical proof, just as good as any other hypothesis.

There are a lot more components, but unless BC-weapons are used it's arguably the most important, this is just my hypothesis tho
. . . ? Is there ever an instance of a war happening because of something that isn't state policy?

Clausewitz' axiom is almost facile and tautological - though it mattered in the context of reshaping some extant political philosophies around war - and damn near every war in human history has been because of at least one state trying to enforce its policy through force of arms. This is true even of wars caused primarily by misunderstandings, as the misunderstandings that caused the war are intrinsically about the enforcement of state policy (e.g. territorial boundaries, protection of entities of the state - i.e. diplomats/envoys, etc.).
 
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. . . ? Is there ever an instance of a war happening because of something that isn't state policy?
Is the absencenof evidence, the evidence of absence?
Clausewitz' axiom is almost facile and tautological - though it mattered in the context of reshaping some extant political philosophies around war - and damn near every war in human history has been because of at least one state trying to enforce its policy through force of arms.
If it was an axiom than it'd be true in it's own model if the model was consistent, doesn't mean it applies to reality. Damn near every war also proves it as wrong.

Edit: If people are disagreeing with the latter part, and not the joke, I urge you to read what an axiom is, and what a scientific model is.
 
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Its demonstrable by a review of all the AI in their games. Which has always rcvd a wide array of criticism.

I have never played a strategy game (except some rare rts) with a good ai made by the developers. Not Paradox. Not civilization. Not galciv. Not total war. We always have to go to the heroic modders (when the devs allow such modding) for a good ai. Glavius for Stellaris, Vox Populi for Civ 5.

The thesis wasn't that the ai is very poor compared to a human, it was that this is the reason for making an economic focused game. In my experience, the ai is usually at least as bad at economy as it is at war, and this is usually the critical aspect because it is what enables the human to snowball. I don't see why focusing on economy rather than war would be a way to hide a bad ai, and you have not successfully argued it.
 
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Is the absencenof evidence, the evidence of absence?

No. But there is no absence of evidence. Almost every war in human history supports Clausewitz' claim.

And it's not hard to see why, because war is a thing that happens between states (or, at least, nominally state-like entities) and basically any action taken by a state is, definitionally, a state policy.

If it was an aciom than it'd be true in it's own model if the model was consistent, doesn't mean it applies to reality.
Except for when it does. Peano's axioms being axioms and the foundation of the definition of a natural number doesn't make natural numbers arbitrary or mean that they don't exist. Simply being an axiom doesn't mean untrue or arbitrary.

Damn near every war also proves it as wrong.

Such as? What wars cannot be characterized as being due to the extension of state policy?
 
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I supported the idea of the current combat system and still do. It needs adjusting on a few things, such as breaking up longer fronts and fine tuning the buffs/de-buffs for battle stats, it may just need some additional decision trees...

It will be fixed in time.

Vicky 2 wasn't really tactical either. Players built a troop mix and sent it against the AI's mix. Then you were at the mercy of the RNG with a Rock/Paper/Scissor overlay. Players were better at a) unit design; b) deployment in depth (having replacement/reinforcement units in nearby stacks); or some other method the AI is known to be unable to use nor stop. The tolls were there so we used them.

I would like a bit more control. I would like to have selectors to put more artillery, maybe at the cost of horse troops -- or the opposite. I'd like to have a few doctrines to give the generals a bit more guidance -- possibly overwritten by their own attributes, of course.

I don't want the idea tossed just because it didn't always work as planned. A couple of streamers have shown it seem to work with small fronts -- if you manage attack/defend orders yourself. (That needs to get fixed -- maybe an acceptable loss check')

Besides, if everything worked as planned on release, I wouldn't think it was really a Paradox game.
 
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It's watered down from nothing. Whatever description you make of CK2's war system it is as simple and straightforward as it gets. Raise levies, hire mercs, deathstack the enemy. Repeat.

The twist in CK war is not the warfare system. It's the RPG mechanics. You want commanders with the right artifacts, the right culture, and so on. In Ck3 this is substituted for the right terrain for buildings and the right culture traits. Either way war is simple and straightforward in both games because there's no deep tactical gameplay. War in CK2 and 3 consist of moving one stack onto another. No, assembling levies doesn't count as deeper gameplay and it would be rather sad if it did. The reason why this is so is because war is not the primary or even the secondary focus of crusader kings. The RPG nonsense is. If you think otherwise you simply haven't played the game all that much.
How do you progress if you can never wage war, holy wars allow quick expansion, marriage takes a generation, inevitable rebellions will bring about war
 
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kawamuratc

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Its demonstrable by a review of all the AI in their games. Which has always rcvd a wide array of criticism.

Ck3 AI not helping in wars, not building buildings

Stellaris AI not able to maintain economies

HOI AI not able to build effective armies easily steamrolled by player

etc etc...


The weakness of the AI is probably the #1 criticism of their SP games.


It seems plausible, that since they can't improve their AI, they will attempt to reduce the amount of things the AI has to do well in order to mitigate player criticism.
Okay, so now you have to link those ideas together. That’s the hard part.
 
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Kyoumen

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Such as? What wars cannot be characterized as being due to the extension of state policy?

An enormous amount of colonial wars, from the conquistadores to Charles Napier taking the army he'd been ordered to give up and attacking Egypt to broker a peace that was immediately denounced by his own givernment since they'd given him no permission to do any such thing, were in fact the product of people on the ground who outright disobeyed their own givernment in search of glory/treasure/ego.
 
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gustavotoniato

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CK3 Game Director:

"Warfare is not and never will be a primary focus for CK3" (Dev Diary #109 - Floor Plan for the Future)

Victoria 3 Game Director:

"The main reason is simply that Victoria 3 is a game primarily focused on Economy, Diplomacy and Politics and we felt a more strategic approach to warfare mechanics fits the game better than micro-intensive tactical maneuvering (Victoria 3 - Dev Diary #22 - The Concept of War)


I get the feeling that this shift is because they have completely given up trying to improve their AI and now they can just handwave away from their failures and poor design decisions with "well warfare is not really a focus of the game"

What's next? No war in HOI 5?

Paradox, your shift away from war in your historical GSG is idiotic. Please stop.
Maybe because they are not about it? So maybe?
 
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paulatreides0

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An enormous amount of colonial wars, from the conquistadores to Charles Napier taking the army he'd been ordered to give up and attacking Egypt to broker a peace that was immediately denounced by his own givernment since they'd given him no permission to do any such thing, were in fact the product of people on the ground who outright disobeyed their own givernment in search of glory/treasure/ego.
That's what I meant by a state-like entity.

The point of Clausewitz' axiom isn't about Spain itself doing something, it's that people resort to war to achieve goals that they cannot otherwise achieve (or at least cannot otherwise achieve at what they deem an acceptable cost). This is true of basically any entity that is capable of marshalling influence over territory and military forces capable of independent conflict (or even individuals - see the following quote). That war is simply the continuation (and, in fact, the extremity) of the same fundamental process as politics and diplomacy, which is to achieve specific aims or goals.

Or to just directly quote Clausewitz:

We shall not enter into any of the abstruse definitions of War used by publicists. We shall keep to the element of the thing itself, to a duel. War is nothing but a duel on an extensive scale. If we would conceive as a unit the countless number of duels which make up a War, we shall do so best by supposing to ourselves two wrestlers. Each strives by physical force to compel the other to submit to his will: each endeavours to throw his adversary, and thus render him incapable of further resistance.

War therefore is an act of violence intended to compel our opponent to fulfil our will.

Violence arms itself with the inventions of Art and Science in order to contend against violence. Self-imposed restrictions, almost imperceptible and hardly worth mentioning, termed usages of International Law, accompany it without essentially impairing its power. Violence, that is to say, physical force (for there is no moral force without the conception of States and Law), is therefore the means; the compulsory submission of the enemy to our will is the ultimate object. In order to attain this object fully, the enemy must be disarmed, and disarmament becomes therefore the immediate object of hostilities in theory. It takes the place of the final object, and puts it aside as something we can eliminate from our calculations.
To Clausewitz the distinction between two men dueling and two mega empires warring was entirely a matter of scale - motivated by the same underlying logic and driving forces, and not fundamentally dissimilar even if appearing so due to the massive difference in scale.
 
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