• We have updated our Community Code of Conduct. Please read through the new rules for the forum that are an integral part of Paradox Interactive’s User Agreement.

Byzantium2000

Colonel
20 Badges
Jun 30, 2017
809
955
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I did read it, but I kinda don't understand the chronology. Armenians were increasingly inhabiting Anatolia all the way through the 10th century.

As for the Turkish raids into Anatolia - the chronology also somehow doesn't fit. 1020's make no sense... By 1040's Turks didn't even get to Western Persia - only after their victory at Dandaqan over Ghaznawids in 1040 they started moving westwards... with Armenia being targeted after 1044 and Anatolia first in late 1050's, but mainly in 1060's.

My question was whether the empire collapsed only because of the Turkmen invasion, or the reasons were also internal, or whether the reasons were mainly internal. We all know that during the 1050's or even earlier the empire fell into deep crisis and remained there all the way until its collapse in Anatolia. The Turks didn't launch a planned invasion, it was several raids which appeared to transform into permanent seizure of what once was economic and political core of one of the greatest medieval empires.
Nobody with your knowledge of Byzantine history could believe that one of the strongest empires in medieval era could collapse after several raids and one single battle without deep internal crisis.... and you know it very well how deep the crisis was... and that it wasn't the Turks who caused it. They just took advantage of it, because during 1070's they were much more busy with their internal struggles and fight with Fatimids over Syria and Hijaz.

Anyways, apologies for that sentence in my previous post. It's just so obvious that you are indeed a Byzantine fanboy. You have amazing knowledge, but you are a fanboy. Unfortunately it's way too obvious.
o_O

I don’t get your point and I feel like your ignoring what I said. Indeed the Byzantines were in a crisis and after Manikert completely for 10 years let the Turkmen ride in almost unimposed. The Selijuks didn’t do this the wandering Turkic tribes themselves did.

The Empire wasn’t going through anything in the 1030-1070 time span it Hadn't faced before. It just so happened to be hit by a nomadic invasion at the same time this time.

You calling me a fanboy isn’t countering the fact the Armenians didn’t increase their spread more into Anatolia cause of inflation and a weaker economy. What do you not understand about what I said in the last 2 comments? it explains clearly just how Anatolia was effected .

Vaspurakan in Armenia was being heavily raided by 1015. The Turkish migration was well underway by the time the Selijuks arrived in force.

We’re not talking about the state of the Byzantine empire but the effects on the region and why. And it just so happens the Ecomomic crisis that was mainly affecting Constantinople and the central government not the peasants and nobility was not a cause for Armenian Immigration or Turkish immigration.

And please stop with the labels, they don’t help your argument.

But this is derailing the thread too much we all agree North Africa wasn’t a backwater, good discussion everyone.
 
Last edited:

elvain

Africa & MidEast cartographer
35 Badges
Jan 20, 2004
4.919
3.703
www.rome.webz.cz
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
o_O

I don’t get your point and I feel like your ignoring what I said. Indeed the Byzantines were in a crisis and after Manikert completely for 10 years let the Turkmen ride in almost unimposed. The Selijuks didn’t do this the wandering Turkic tribes themselves did.

The Empire wasn’t going through anything in the 1030-1070 time span it Hadn't faced before. It just so happened to be hit by a nomadic invasion at the same time this time.

You calling me a fanboy isn’t countering the fact the Armenians didn’t increase their spread more into Anatolia cause of inflation and a weaker economy. What do you not understand about what I said in the last 2 comment it explains just clearly how Anatolia was effected .

Vaspurakan in Armenia was being heavily raided by 1015. The Turkish migration was well underway by the time the Selijuks arrived in force.

We’re not talking about the state of the Byzantine empire but the effects on the region and why. And it just so happens the Ecomomic crisis that was mainly affecting Constantinople and the central government not the peasants and nobility was not a cause for Armenian Immigration or Turkish immigration.

And please stop with the labels, they don’t help your argument.

By this is derailing the thread too much we all agree North Africa wasn’t a backwater, good discussion everyone.
First, sorry, calling you fanboy was by no means intended to help any argumentation. I know it never helps. Just when you yourself used the word, I wanted to confirm to you that you indeed may look like one to others. Sorry for that.

Also sorry for being confusing. My initial assumption that Anatolia was in demographic crisis before Turkmen settled there was dismissed. Thanks for explanation. Also for making it clear that the Byzantines evacuated the east and then by themselves destroyed the forests in the west, causing aridization there as well as did the Turks in the east.

Thanks for proving me wrong in most of my assumptions about Anatolia.

Now let's hope @Coalsack will get beyond clicking "disagree" and also will prove me wrong also about North Africa.
 

Coalsack

First Lieutenant
8 Badges
May 9, 2018
272
0
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Stellaris
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Stellaris: Synthetic Dawn
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II
One of the reasons of North African decline, as I stated, was the loss of the Italian market to sell their grains. The collapse of the Western Roman Empire accelerated heavily the decline. The overall mediocre management of the Vandals on the area didn't help much. Answering your earlier question, the Byzantine reconquest of Carthage injected a bit of life on the region's economy, as their had again a market to their grains.

Regarding the discovery of America: You must know that at those times, most of North Africa was either on turk hands on in the hands of Berber pirates, and the grain trade with Europe, if any, was minimal. The New World brought new crops (cocoa, tomato, potato, corn, etc) and plenty of land to cultivate others (such as wheat or sugarcane). The gold found on Mesoamerica and the Andes quickly surpassed what the Sahel trade could bring.

Of course, at that point, slave trade had become the principal economic activity on North Africa.
 

Byzantium2000

Colonel
20 Badges
Jun 30, 2017
809
955
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
First, sorry, calling you fanboy was by no means intended to help any argumentation. I know it never helps. Just when you yourself used the word, I wanted to confirm to you that you indeed may look like one to others. Sorry for that.

Also sorry for being confusing. My initial assumption that Anatolia was in demographic crisis before Turkmen settled there was dismissed. Thanks for explanation. Also for making it clear that the Byzantines evacuated the east and then by themselves destroyed the forests in the west, causing aridization there as well as did the Turks in the east.

Thanks for proving me wrong in most of my assumptions about Anatolia.

Now let's hope @Coalsack will get beyond clicking "disagree" and also will prove me wrong also about North Africa.
But I didn’t call you a fanboy, no harm done though either way just glad we could come out with a peaceful enlightening discussion. Personally I appreciate the knowledge and ideas you bring to the forum and would hate to become your enemy.

Now mind you I’d say the Byzantine new farms themselves didn’t affect western Anatolias fertility themselves too much but the later labandonment and forced removal of their workers and guards by Nicean Emperor Michael Palaiologos , making them prime feeding grounds for the Turkmens animals and leaving them to the now more arid encroaching central Anatolian landscape did. So Western Anatolia became more like a 50/50 Turkoman/Byzantine beatup project.
 

Wakizashi

Captain
27 Badges
Jun 7, 2013
377
41
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
You are almost right, except the fact that North Africa (namely the Roman province of Africa, islamic Ifrikiya, which is basically Tunisia and East Algeria) remained very fertile during Islamic times - which is after the Arab-Muslim invasion you speak about. It was among the most fertile regions of Mediterrean area during the 10th century

The Arab-Muslim conquest changed northing in this perspective. So the claim that "if Romans...." is simply invalid, because even when Arab and Berber dynasties ruled there, the region was as prosperous as before, despite gradual aridization (caused by ecologic/climate factors).

You are right, though, that the impoverishment was a result of Arab invasion. Just not the one you meant, which brought the downfall of Roman rule. 400 years after Islamization of the area, 90 years after Fatimids moved their capital from Ifriqiya to Egypt, tens of thousands or by some even a million of nomadic Hilalian and Sulaymi Arabs moved from South-East Egypt westwards. Fatimids sent those unruly tribes and promissed them their former land after sunni Berber Zirid dynasty rebelled against shiite Fatimids.

This was the invasion which destroyed the agricultural rich Ifriqiya, caused overal nomadization of the region, sped up aridization and also reshaped ethnic map of Maghreb. The impoverishment had nothing to do with the loss of Roman civilization. The change happened when Arab-Berber agricultural and city based civilization was invaded by Arab nomadic tribes.

SInce this time Berbers started mixing with Arabs and the whole Maghreb got Arabized. OTOH the negative elements of this Hilalian invasion were probably overrated by the greatest historian of the area Ibn Khaldun, and most historians since then (early 15th century) only copied his interpretation. The other fact is that during late 11th and 12th century in general Africa's aridization became unsustainable all around the Sahara. The desertification of the Sahel brought an end to Ghana empire on the other side of the Sahara.
So apropriating the downfall of North Africa to the Arab-Muslim conquest and fall of Roman civilization is just plain Romano-centric nonsense.

Beautifully said, and a very insightful analysis. Romano-centrism and romanticisation, along with a "clash of civilisations" mentality is a major issue in Western popular history study nowadays.
 

elvain

Africa & MidEast cartographer
35 Badges
Jan 20, 2004
4.919
3.703
www.rome.webz.cz
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Beautifully said, and a very insightful analysis. Romano-centrism and romanticisation, along with a "clash of civilisations" mentality is a major issue in Western popular history study nowadays.
To be fair, my experience with many muslims and Africans has shown me that the "clash of civilisations" mentality isn't exclusive to Western popular history study (as well as general populace). Self-centrism and romanticisation as well.
We Europeans just are no better than others, but neither are we worse.
The only thing I dislike even more than disrespect towards others is disrespect towards our own civilization.
 

De Vermandois

Corporal
37 Badges
Jul 23, 2012
31
13
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
OTOH the negative elements of this Hilalian invasion were probably overrated by the greatest historian of the area Ibn Khaldun, and most historians since then (early 15th century) only copied his interpretation. The other fact is that during late 11th and 12th century in general Africa's aridization became unsustainable all around the Sahara. The desertification of the Sahel brought an end to Ghana empire on the other side of the Sahara
There is very little evidence about what caused the downfall of Ghana Empire. Besides, new Mali Empire emerged only shortly thereafter.

I can't agree that the climate change was the main reason behind Maghreb medieval decline. If it was so, why NW Africa was more or less stable in terms of affluence since the rise of Carthage to the Aghlabid rule? Climate had changed, sometimes drastically, more than once through all these times.
 

ChaosOnline

Captain
54 Badges
Oct 21, 2012
361
247
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • 500k Club
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Divine Wind
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
Thanks for your kindness, but I don't think you should do this. I'm not an expert. I've studied it, read a few books etc, am very interested in the area, but no, I'm far from being expert. Although I sometimes am arrogant enough to pretend being one.
Oh shit, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to put you on the spot. I guess I just think very highly of some of the posts you've made. I won't do it again.
 

Wakizashi

Captain
27 Badges
Jun 7, 2013
377
41
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
To be fair, my experience with many muslims and Africans has shown me that the "clash of civilisations" mentality isn't exclusive to Western popular history study (as well as general populace). Self-centrism and romanticisation as well.
We Europeans just are no better than others, but neither are we worse.
The only thing I dislike even more than disrespect towards others is disrespect towards our own civilization.

I must admit that while being a Westerner I have very little respect for Western or European civilisation or culture, for as far as such a thing still exists in present-day capitalist society.

But you're right that many Muslims and for example Arabs suffer from the same romanticization, especially when it comes to glorifying the Abbasids or even the Umayyads. I am a Muslim myself, but damn, many of those rulers were horrible, and in IMHO never worthy of the title of Caliph.
 

elvain

Africa & MidEast cartographer
35 Badges
Jan 20, 2004
4.919
3.703
www.rome.webz.cz
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
There is very little evidence about what caused the downfall of Ghana Empire. Besides, new Mali Empire emerged only shortly thereafter.
Depends what you take as evidence ;)
If you want pure historical written sources, then you are right. But there is increasing number of archaeologic evidence that climate played important role.
Not sure what you mean by new Mali Empire emerged only shortly thereafter, as there was clearly an intermediate period between the two empires - at least some 2 generations. Of course when you use other sources than Wiki which dates the fall of Ghana to 1240 which is a date when Ghana was deffinitely absorbed.
It is clear that the whole area which used to be the core of Ghana was desertified during 12th century and the power base of the Sahel moved some 200-300 kilometers southwards - first to the "Soso" and later even further south to Mali.
We don't know all the reasons behind this shift, but current historiography has very little doubt that aridization of northern Sahel played important role in the downfall of Ghana.
And considering that deity bringing water was the main cult of pagan Ghana, we can assume that water was a precious rather than abundant resource in that empire. As proven by archaeology anyway.
But of course this may all be wrong and it might have been caused by something completely different.

I can't agree that the climate change was the main reason behind Maghreb medieval decline. If it was so, why NW Africa was more or less stable in terms of affluence since the rise of Carthage to the Aghlabid rule? Climate had changed, sometimes drastically, more than once through all these times.
Well, I didn't really say main reason. If you read my post, I desrribed the course of historiographic interpretations of the decline of Africa. For centuries it was explained purely as consequence of Hilalian migration/invasion, but later research - which included other than just written sources - has shown that there were also other reasons behind this decline and that the effect of said migration might have been overrated.
The data available to us is not enough to determin a clear one reason for that. It is most probably a combination of several factors which interacted with each other and increased each other's effect.
I've put North Africa to the contrary of Western Europe - while one was target of migration + like all other areas surrounding it witnessed natural aridization, the other - Europe - profited from the warming period and was not targeted by any external invasion at the same time.

As for climate changes - during the first millenium there were clearly climate changes. Some waves were smaller, some were larger. Isn't it strange that the relative wealth during the Aghlabids somehow corresponded with somehow colder period, the same goes with the revival during late 6th century after Justinian's conquest. I'm not drawing any conclusions, just pointing to some coincidence. There are of course many other factors which should be considered, but... well thinking that agricultural societies and their rise and decline was not influenced by climate is somehow silly, don't you think?
 
Last edited:

Federalist girl

Field Marshal
87 Badges
Aug 15, 2010
2.521
1.158
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
  • Tyranny: Gold Edition
  • Stellaris
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Stellaris: Lithoids
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV Sign-up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Shadowrun Returns
  • Shadowrun: Dragonfall
  • Stellaris: Megacorp
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome Deluxe Edition
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Stellaris: Ancient Relics
  • Age of Wonders: Planetfall
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings III Referal
  • Stellaris: Apocalypse
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Stellaris: Distant Stars
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • BATTLETECH
  • Stellaris: Nemesis
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Victoria 2
Re: grain production in North Africa, I believe that the chain of events was the other way around. Grain production didn’t fall in Africa Proconsularis because the Western Empire fell; rather, the Western Empire fell (in part) due to a lack of grain shipments from Africa.

The trade between Carthāgō (did not expect my phone to add those macrons) and the Portus Romanus was paid for by the Roman state treasury and carried along with it a vast quantity of goods. The state was paying for vast shipments of grain; merchants could include other basic goods (such as African pottery) in bulk and make a good deal in economies of scale, while the Roman state could take a cut in taxes.

When the Vandals took Africa, the shipments stopped and the dying Western Empire depended on Sicily and the Italian hinterland to feed Urbs Roma, which was not enough to support the City’s absurdly large population. With the loss of grain, bulk trade, and tax revenues the Empire was unable to pay for its own defense (or buy grain from individual traders under the Vandalic African administration).

Roma did indeed become a city of only a few tens of thousands... after the loss of the grain supply. A couple sacks and especially the Gothic War had destroyed the City for good.

But by then, Vandal Africa was already reconfiguring itself. Without the massive state-sponsored trading fleets, the merchants were dealing in more local Mediterranean commerce. There was still trade with Sicily, Italy, and coastal France — but on a different scale and with more individualized goods instead of bulk trade in staple goods.
 

Byzantium2000

Colonel
20 Badges
Jun 30, 2017
809
955
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Re: grain production in North Africa, I believe that the chain of events was the other way around. Grain production didn’t fall in Africa Proconsularis because the Western Empire fell; rather, the Western Empire fell (in part) due to a lack of grain shipments from Africa.

The trade between Carthāgō (did not expect my phone to add those macrons) and the Portus Romanus was paid for by the Roman state treasury and carried along with it a vast quantity of goods. The state was paying for vast shipments of grain; merchants could include other basic goods (such as African pottery) in bulk and make a good deal in economies of scale, while the Roman state could take a cut in taxes.

When the Vandals took Africa, the shipments stopped and the dying Western Empire depended on Sicily and the Italian hinterland to feed Urbs Roma, which was not enough to support the City’s absurdly large population. With the loss of grain, bulk trade, and tax revenues the Empire was unable to pay for its own defense (or buy grain from individual traders under the Vandalic African administration).

Roma did indeed become a city of only a few tens of thousands... after the loss of the grain supply. A couple sacks and especially the Gothic War had destroyed the City for good.

But by then, Vandal Africa was already reconfiguring itself. Without the massive state-sponsored trading fleets, the merchants were dealing in more local Mediterranean commerce. There was still trade with Sicily, Italy, and coastal France — but on a different scale and with more individualized goods instead of bulk trade in staple goods.
But that grain production resumed after Justinian and after the loss of Egypt was The Empires and Constantinople main grain producer till 690. But then after the Arab conquest trade with the Queen of Cities and Europe took a steep decline.

The lack of a Roman Lake or a possible Arab lake definitely hurt the trans continental Mediterranean trade system.
 

icedt729

前任士官
76 Badges
Dec 22, 2010
1.845
2.413
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Europa Universalis IV: Dharma
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Victoria 2
  • War of the Roses
  • 500k Club
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Mount & Blade: Warband
  • Mount & Blade: With Fire and Sword
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Colonel
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Together for Victory
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mandate of Heaven
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • Victoria 3 Sign Up
  • Hearts of Iron IV: By Blood Alone
  • Hearts of Iron IV: No Step Back
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Death or Dishonor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cradle of Civilization
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rule Britannia
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Expansion Pass
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Rome: Vae Victis
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Europa Universalis IV: Third Rome
  • Knights of Honor
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Sengoku
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Europa Universalis III
I recently read a very good book called 'Why the west rules the world...for now' by a Geographer/Historian called Ian Morris. It's a pretty long book, but it does contain lots of graphs that compare technological and social development between the East and West over the course of history. It's a pretty crude visual indicator, but the attached graph tracks social development from 14,000bc - 2000ce in the 'East' vs. 'West'.

In the CKII early starts most historians agree that Eastern cultures were significantly more developed than Western ones, hence why the west oftern refers to this period as the 'Dark Ages'.

View attachment 446521
I also enjoyed that book (I even re-read it recently), but it's not relevant to the discussion here since Morris' "West" includes North Africa and the Middle East as well as Europe. The OP is asking about North Africa relative to other parts of the Western world.
 

Wakizashi

Captain
27 Badges
Jun 7, 2013
377
41
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
But that grain production resumed after Justinian and after the loss of Egypt was The Empires and Constantinople main grain producer till 690. But then after the Arab conquest trade with the Queen of Cities and Europe took a steep decline.

The lack of a Roman Lake or a possible Arab lake definitely hurt the trans continental Mediterranean trade system.

Mediterranean trade can still continue without the necessity of one empire monopolizing all of the seacoasts.

Trade did definitely still prosper for far after the arrival of Islam to North Africa, and so did the prosperity of the area as an agricultural production unit in itself. You can't judge prosperity based solely on how much North African trade went to Europe.
 

Byzantium2000

Colonel
20 Badges
Jun 30, 2017
809
955
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Age of Wonders III
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Victoria 2
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Victoria 2: Heart of Darkness
  • Victoria 2: A House Divided
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
Mediterranean trade can still continue without the necessity of one empire monopolizing all of the seacoasts.

Trade did definitely still prosper for far after the arrival of Islam to North Africa, and so did the prosperity of the area as an agricultural production unit in itself. You can't judge prosperity based solely on how much North African trade went to Europe.
My comment was referring to the grain trade specifically which did take a hit due to a lack of Empires Soley relying on it. Yes we have been over this already North Africa didn’t immediately turn into a backwater due to leaving Roman control. But North Africa being a breadbasket for Europe stops with the conquest of Carthage.
Dosent matter who did it, be they Muslims, Zoroastrians, Nestorians etc, it happend.
 

elvain

Africa & MidEast cartographer
35 Badges
Jan 20, 2004
4.919
3.703
www.rome.webz.cz
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
I find it really amusing how some people consider trade and economy of North Africa so dependent on ties with Europe.

Don't get me wrong - Europe was indeed very important partner (and for long the most important) and when there was trade between the southern and northern Mediterrean, both sides profited from it. But when the ties got interrupted and North Africa became part of muslim world, the trade didn't disappear. The routes were only redirected and the economy became part of a civilization which stretched from Spain (included) to India, one which was as rich and prosperous or even more, than Late Roman/Byzantine empire.

While the Grain ceased to be the dominant export product, it doesn't mean neither that it ceased to be neither produced, nor exported. But there were obviously other goods which were produced there and exported. The doinant agricultural export article of the southern steppe of Ifriqiya around Kairouan were olives/oil, but the northern part of Ifriqia remained important source of grain for Islamic world.

With the inclusion of the Sahel into the Islamic (economic) world in the 9th century and the civilization in 11-13th century, Africa (still speaking mainly about Ifriqiya - primarily Tunisia) shifted from source of agricultural supplies to a trading crossroad with prospering urban population and merchant families founding colonies on across the Sahara and Islamic world and with contacts with Europe aswell.

Its wealth and prosperity was probably still not near Egypt at its glory or Roman empire at its peak, but it certailnly was not some dependant backwater region which relied on Europeans buying its products. It has become backwater during late medieval / early modern period, but not only due to trends in Europe. In the same era the Arab-Muslim world was stagnating or in crisis which resulted in conquest of the whole area by Ottoman empire.

Europe was traditional and close and most profitable trading partner, but not the only one.
I know that when somebody knows only "Western" (European) history, it is natural that you draw all your conclusions based on processes happeing there/influencing it. But the world outside Europe also had its history and rises/declines, which were interacting with each other causing rises/declines in neighbouring regions too.
 
Last edited:

Wakizashi

Captain
27 Badges
Jun 7, 2013
377
41
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Divine Wind
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Imperator: Rome Sign Up
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Cities: Skylines
  • War of the Roses
  • Victoria 2
  • Europa Universalis III Complete
  • Heir to the Throne
  • Europa Universalis III: Chronicles
  • Cities: Skylines Deluxe Edition
  • Europa Universalis III
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
I find it really amusing how some people consider trade and economy of North Africa so dependent on ties with Europe.

Don't get me wrong - Europe was indeed very important partner (and for long the most important) and when there was trade between the southern and northern Mediterrean, both sides profited from it. But when the ties got interrupted and North Africa became part of muslim world, the trade didn't disappear. The routes were only redirected and the economy became part of a civilization which stretched from Spain (included) to India, one which was as rich and prosperous or even more, than Late Roman/Byzantine empire.

While the Grain ceased to be the dominant export product, it doesn't mean neither that it ceased to be neither produced, nor exported. But there were obviously other goods which were produced there and exported. The doinant agricultural export article of the southern steppe of Ifriqiya around Kairouan were olives/oil, but the northern part of Ifriqia remained important source of grain for Islamic world.

With the inclusion of the Sahel into the Islamic (economic) world in the 9th century and the civilization in 11-13th century, Africa (still speaking mainly about Ifriqiya - primarily Tunisia) shifted from source of agricultural supplies to a trading crossroad with prospering urban population and merchant families founding colonies on across the Sahara and Islamic world and with contacts with Europe aswell.

Its wealth and prosperity was probably still not near Egypt at its glory or Roman empire at its peak, but it certailnly was not some dependant backwater region which relied on Europeans buying its products. It has become backwater during late medieval / early modern period, but not only due to trends in Europe. In the same era the Arab-Muslim world was stagnating or in crisis which resulted in conquest of the whole area by Ottoman empire.

Europe was traditional and close and most profitable trading partner, but not the only one.
I know that when somebody knows only "Western" (European) history, it is natural that you draw all your conclusions based on processes happeing there/influencing it. But the world outside Europe also had its history and rises/declines, which were interacting with each other causing rises/declines in neighbouring regions too.
Precisely. The problem with most study of history in the West even today, despite the abundance of information we have access to now, is that it is still incredibly eurocentric and prone to analyzing everything through the perspective of how the West featured into it.
 

De Vermandois

Corporal
37 Badges
Jul 23, 2012
31
13
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Mare Nostrum
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Europa Universalis IV: Cossacks
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Stellaris
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Europa Universalis IV: Rights of Man
  • Pillars of Eternity
  • Tyranny: Archon Edition
  • Stellaris: Digital Anniversary Edition
  • Stellaris: Leviathans Story Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Stellaris - Path to Destruction bundle
  • Tyranny - Bastards Wound
  • Stellaris: Humanoids Species Pack
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Europa Universalis IV: El Dorado
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
  • Tyranny - Tales from the Tiers
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sunset Invasion
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Europa Universalis IV: Art of War
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Europa Universalis IV: Pre-order
The doinant agricultural export article of the southern steppe of Ifriqiya around Kairouan were olives/oil
Yep. And then we have Fernan Brodel who writes [in La Méditerranée et le Monde Méditerranéen a l'époque de Philippe II] that by 16th century, the only place in Tunisia which still cultivated olives was island Djerba.
 

elvain

Africa & MidEast cartographer
35 Badges
Jan 20, 2004
4.919
3.703
www.rome.webz.cz
  • Cities: Skylines - Green Cities
  • Crusader Kings II: Horse Lords
  • Cities: Skylines - After Dark
  • Crusader Kings II: Conclave
  • Cities: Skylines - Snowfall
  • Crusader Kings II: Reapers Due
  • Cities: Skylines - Natural Disasters
  • Crusader Kings II: Monks and Mystics
  • Cities: Skylines - Mass Transit
  • Europa Universalis IV: Common Sense
  • Crusader Kings II: Jade Dragon
  • Cities: Skylines - Parklife
  • Cities: Skylines Industries
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Fury
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Cities: Skylines - Campus
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Crusader Kings III: Royal Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV: Conquest of Paradise
  • Crusader Kings II: Charlemagne
  • Crusader Kings II: Legacy of Rome
  • Crusader Kings II: The Old Gods
  • Crusader Kings II: Rajas of India
  • Crusader Kings II: The Republic
  • Crusader Kings II: Sons of Abraham
  • Crusader Kings II: Sword of Islam
  • Europa Universalis IV
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Europa Universalis IV: Wealth of Nations
  • Europa Universalis IV: Call to arms event
  • Europa Universalis IV: Res Publica
  • Rome Gold
  • 500k Club
  • Cities: Skylines
  • Crusader Kings II: Way of Life
Yep. And then we have Fernan Brodel who writes [in La Méditerranée et le Monde Méditerranéen a l'époque de Philippe II] that by 16th century, the only place in Tunisia which still cultivated olives was island Djerba.
Yup, I of course know this excellent work of Fernand Braudel. He describes situation after what I mentioned in the very post you quoted me from:

Its wealth and prosperity was probably still not near Egypt at its glory or Roman empire at its peak, but it certailnly was not some dependant backwater region which relied on Europeans buying its products. It has become backwater during late medieval / early modern period, but not only due to trends in Europe. In the same era the Arab-Muslim world was stagnating or in crisis which resulted in conquest of the whole area by Ottoman empire.
(Coalsack respectfully disagrees, like with everything I wrote in this thread)
 
Last edited:

Zsrai

Field Marshal
103 Badges
Aug 14, 2009
3.682
2.653
  • 500k Club
  • Hearts of Iron IV: La Resistance
  • Imperator: Rome - Magna Graecia
  • Battle for Bosporus
  • 200k Club
  • Hearts of Iron: The Card Game
  • Crusader Kings II: Holy Knight (pre-order)
  • Crusader Kings Complete
  • Crusader Kings II
  • Crusader Kings III
  • Rome Gold
  • Imperator: Rome
  • Hearts of Iron IV: Cadet
  • Stellaris: Galaxy Edition
  • Europa Universalis IV
Looks like someone is being a salty bitch because you proved him wrong. Hopefully he doesn't follow you around the forums like has happened to me before. I'm not sure that it's reportable, but it may be.