Why does Manchu never manage to successfully form Qing?

[SweetHalcyHS]

Manchu forms Qing frequently enough. Of course, it's not a for-sure event, but it shouldn't be.

The real problem with Manchu I see here is that it just doesn't have enough momentum to do anything significant even as Qing, since it can't conquer large swaths of China as IRL.

 

[Darkath]

Qing are granted claims on all of china, that's plenty enough, but the game can't really model the chaos china was in once the manchu seized Beijing. May be a very harsh event could happen if Ming lose its capital city ?

Also on major issue is Qing needs many wars to overcome the warscore limitations. This coupled to the 5 years truce between each wars, means even a very agressive Qing will take a long time to conquer the whole China, while in reality it took 3 years after the fall of beijing to subdue most of the country (1644-1647). (the conquest officially ended in 1683 because of various revolts and attempts to restore the Ming dynasty or create a new one, but in EU4 that would count as Nationalist rebels i guess)

So yeah, EU4 current mechanics can't really do more to make Qing conquest happen naturally.

Also don't forget that this conquest was extremely unlikely, and was the result of coincidental sets of events.

 

[Dakilla TM]

Qing are granted claims on all of china, that's plenty enough, but the game can't really model the chaos china was in once the manchu seized Beijing. May be a very harsh event could happen if Ming lose its capital city ?

Also on major issue is Qing needs many wars to overcome the warscore limitations. This coupled to the 5 years truce between each wars, means even a very agressive Qing will take a long time to conquer the whole China, while in reality it took 3 years after the fall of beijing to subdue most of the country (1644-1647). (the conquest officially ended in 1683 because of various revolts and attempts to restore the Ming dynasty or create a new one, but in EU4 that would count as Nationalist rebels i guess)

So yeah, EU4 current mechanics can't really do more to make Qing conquest happen naturally.

Also don't forget that this conquest was extremely unlikely, and was the result of coincidental sets of events.

That's also another thing. Manchu can't just fight one war with Ming and get Beijing, no, it'll take a few more wars for Ming to decrease in size to where Manchu can demand Beijing. One of the problems for AI Manchu is that it almost never attacks Ming, even if Ming is overrun by rebels. It just keeps trying to push west, and after it wipes out the Oirat Horde, it doesn't go any further and sits there. While Ming collapses in to Shun and Zhou, AI Manchu still doesn't do anything. Maybe the AI behavior needs to be changed?

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I don't think Qing should necessarily conquer Ming, rather that Ming should fall most of the time, and whover it falls to (such as Zhou) should properly conquer it, rather than Ming existing as just a fraction of what it is. Perhaps Machu should conquer Ming a little more often, though, but the truth is, that even if we have the Faction mechanic to weaken Ming, and help its decline, we still don't have anything to help whoever conquers it to really form a ruling dynasty. Ming just gets smaller gradually, and this really doesn't seem to be anything historically plausible.

I don't really think they should get the Qing tag, though, however. Especially when some nations such as Zhou already have a dynastic tag already. The aspects China's centralisation and decentralisation aren't properly modelled properly in the game, I suppose. If Manchu manages to conquer Ming, its encouragement to properly annex it and move its capital is handled with missions. This means that we don't see potential conquerors acting as they would realistically, except for in the case of Machu, which has all these missions and events made for them to encourage the historical outcome.

 

[Darkath]

I think that any Dynasty (Qing, Xia, Shun, Zhou) that have already a significant part of china (40% ?), should have a "claim the mandate of heaven" decision granting them cores on all china.

 

[unmerged(804580)]

It seems that for some damn reason the Manchus almost always enter royal marriage with Ming, at least in my games. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that they're both Confucian (though they don't seem to get along with their fellow Confucian Korea). Ming PU'd and integrated Manchus in two of my games already, which is kind of... annoying to see, to say the least. Also, the fact that owning the capital Beijing is a requirement doesn't help the AIs to capture it. I accidently separated Beijing from the rest of Ming in my GB > HRE game and the Manchus took it over and formed Qing right away.

Though I can understand that it must be difficult for PDX to balance Ming in a reasonable way. It probably shouldn't go all out conquest with full Chinese resources, nor should it collapse immediately as the game begins. 1444 is a problematic start date for East Asia, since Ming was still pretty strong which is OK, but the subsequent deline of Ming and rise of Qing would be really hard to implement.

Perhaps adding historical rivalry between Ming and everyone to the North, plus granting Manchus the lucky nation status could simulate it better? Paradox can be sometimes ruthless with historical rivalries... Candar is a historical rival of Crimea, Mamluks and the Ottomans. Ming could probably use more enemies to the North in a similar way.

 

[VolitionNewlove]

I think that any Dynasty (Qing, Xia, Shun, Zhou) that have already a significant part of china (40% ?), should have a "claim the mandate of heaven" decision granting them cores on all china.

I'd probably also suggest something else to cripple Ming if its capital is lost. While in EU3 we had some representative of centralisation-decentralisation in the game, and while it may not have been too great, it's better than nothing, I suppose. To a state like Ming, losing the Forbidden City should be far more crippling.

It seems that for some damn reason the Manchus almost always enter royal marriage with Ming, at least in my games. Perhaps that has something to do with the fact that they're both Confucian (though they don't seem to get along with their fellow Confucian Korea). Ming PU'd and integrated Manchus in two of my games already, which is kind of... annoying to see, to say the least. Also, the fact that owning the capital Beijing is a requirement doesn't help the AIs to capture it. I accidently separated Beijing from the rest of Ming in my GB > HRE game and the Manchus took it over and formed Qing right away.

Personal Unions in the first place for non Europeans is kind of silly in the first place. There really does not seem to be any examples non-Europeans inheriting kingdoms in such a fashion in this period. The fact that all of non-European religions are all grouped into a single "Eastern Religious Group," allowing any nation from Marathas to Manchu have a Royal Marriage between each other only makes things worse.

Though I can understand that it must be difficult for PDX to balance Ming in a reasonable way. It probably shouldn't go all out conquest with full Chinese resources, nor should it collapse immediately as the game begins. 1444 is a problematic start date for East Asia, since Ming was still pretty strong which is OK, but the subsequent deline of Ming and rise of Qing would be really hard to implement.

I believe that more special mechanics could be to note the centralisation of the China in this period, most notably in the case of Ming. EU4's current war and peace deals system doesn't work so well outside of Europe. The Ottoman Empire needs to use a specific mission to be able to annex the Mamluks, something that cannot be relied on, which causes the AI Ottomans to only rarely be able to conquest the Mamluks in a game. Conquesting China should be more of an "all-or-nothing" deal.

Perhaps adding historical rivalry between Ming and everyone to the North, plus granting Manchus the lucky nation status could simulate it better? Paradox can be sometimes ruthless with historical rivalries... Candar is a historical rival of Crimea, Mamluks and the Ottomans. Ming could probably use more enemies to the North in a similar way.

It's not so much that Manchu doesn't hate Ming enough, Manchu has Ming as one of three nations it can expand into. It is however true, though, that it will favour expansion into Korea and Mongolia, as both are weaker. That's not to say that weakening Ming would be a solution, though, as that would just make them more likely to be conquered by nations which were historically tributaries, such as Annam, Korea and Tibet.