I've found it pretty odd that Manchu almost always gets wiped out and/or never succeeds in forming Qing. Does anyone else think Manchu needs some serious buffs?
Why does Manchu never manage to successfully form Qing?
- Thread starter ComaPrison
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They don't need a buff, as a player, it's ridiculously easy. But as a player, you know Ming army isn't worth crap even if they outnumber you 3 to 1: this is something an AI wouldn't know looking at numbers, hence they never go to war with Ming.
Maybe an AI priorization on "forming Quing nation" goals.
Maybe an AI priorization on "forming Quing nation" goals.
Any decently skilled player can form just about anything you can imagine. I mean, for F's-sake, I've made a Shiite Republic as Ming. My point was that the AI never successfully forms Qing.
In real life, the Manchu has great leaders and generals, special ones in several centuries! In game what they have? may be the AI should get event to have a god 6-6-6 generals, or 1-6-6 is enough!
But I see Qing several times, with southern china remain.
But I see Qing several times, with southern china remain.
in my latest game AI also formed Qing. it's all about if Manchu manages to win it's ealy wars agsint oirat and Ming. casue if they do they really start picking up the pace affter that.
Manchu could use better NIs. I find their NIs to be pretty mediocre all things considered.
The Oirates end up being very strong early game because they have an uber leader with an uber general.
The Oirates end up being very strong early game because they have an uber leader with an uber general.
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Agree with this, if they got that +1 shock earlier and had some of the numbers bumped up they could be quite strong. They should really have very good early military bonuses to let them stand up to their neighbours. The later bonuses can be weaker ones based around the economy; tax, stability, rr reduction, etc.
The game try to stimulate Manchu history progress: in 1444 they need to be weak enough to not run over Ming immediately, but like Ming, they need to be nerfed later when they become Qing!!!
As I remember, one of the provinces need to form Qing belong to Oirat Horde, and that horde is just too powerful!!
In the old patch, Manchu is too weak, but in 1.3 a human player can make war with Ming immediately in 1444 and win!
As I remember, one of the provinces need to form Qing belong to Oirat Horde, and that horde is just too powerful!!
In the old patch, Manchu is too weak, but in 1.3 a human player can make war with Ming immediately in 1444 and win!
What are you talking about? Manchu is a horde with horde troops. They never get upgraded. Chinese troops are roughly equal by miltech 6 and completely superior by miltech 12. At that point Manchu will never win a war against Ming unless Ming somehow lost its whole army already and even then Ming could probably rebuild it in time to fight back.
The problem is that Manchu has a very small window where it can actually beat Ming, and most of the time it doesn't happen then. The real irony is that the Ming dynasty lasted until well in to the 1600s. But in the game if the Ming lasts that long it's probably never going to fall.
Qing never happens because hordes are insanely underpowered and basically worthless after 1550 or so unless they reform government, at the very least. Even Native Americans can kill the hordes, without westernizing, by miltech 10.
It's beyond ridiculous.
Except AI Ming doesn't switch faction, which leave the troops with a 75 discipline and they just get mauled.
It does sometimes, it just doesn't seem to do it intelligently. I've fought Ming and their troops were at normal discipline.
As a player, Qing isn't too hard to form. But for the AI, yes, because so far AI Manchu only fights the Mongols or the Koreans, and avoids Ming completely. There is a small window to attack Ming as Manchu, like when Ming loses its sh*t and rebels occupy the whole place. I would like to see specific evens for Manchu, and maybe buff their NIs a little?
I am fairly certain that the AI never makes a concious effort to change its faction... any faction changes are entirely by event.
Before my last hard drive died, I had a screen shot that had Manchu, Ming, Qing, Shun, Xi, and Zhou all existing at the same time. I never figured out exactly how that happened.
I've seen Qing form a couple of times now since the last patch, but they never really manage to expand beyond what it takes to get those requirements. They can't take enough from Ming when it matters, so they usually lack the [raw] power to push further after going Qing and getting the Chinese tech group, I guess. Forming Qing no longer giving cores probably doesn't help either.
I've seen decent sized Qing 2 times since 1.3.
I guess it happens but the stars must align = Strong manchu early on, and weakened china (losing the mandate the heaven is often enough)
I guess it happens but the stars must align = Strong manchu early on, and weakened china (losing the mandate the heaven is often enough)