Why does Lithuania have more development than France in 1444?

[Moarice]

Say what you want, but in new patch I actually see Lithuania getting rekt by Muscovy pretty often. I even once saw Theodoro win against them with Muscovite and my(Circassian) help.

 

[TheDungen]

You just forget like 20 other factors (in example huge uprising at ukraine). Things arent single dimensional. Game doesnt simulate so many things.

Sweden beat the PLC like three times but sure let's blame em all on uprisings in ukraine. And that was in fact my point, population is meaningless unless everyone is pulling in the same direction which ukraine apperantly weren't.

I dont see any uber developed provinces at Lithuania. Simply there is many provinces with low/average development.

Well perhaps a few more of them should be low rather than avarage.

 

[Arinsar]

Sweden beat the PLC like three times but sure let's blame em all on uprisings in ukraine. And that was in fact my point, population is meaningless unless everyone is pulling in the same direction which ukraine apperantly weren't.


Well perhaps a few more of them should be low rather than avarage.

Want me to name more things ? How do you think country can fight when its been in almost constant war for 50 years on diffrent fronts (if not war then rebellion). I said "uprising" not "uprisings". You can also read like Swedish forces were roll over in some battles by polish cavalry (most notable Kircholm 1605).

 

[Beanicus]

I think Lithuania by itself is not game-breaking, but once it's under the PU the amount of troops the early game Poland + vassals + Lithuania has is not at all balanced. Especially when you consider that they usually have powerful allies. I've seen them ally Sweden, Novgorod and Bohemia and it's just a joke then.

As the Devs are reluctant to nerf development for some reason, here's a good alternative:

Add some kind of specific malus for being the lesser partner in a union under an elective monarchy. This means you don't screw unions in general, but can curtail Lithuania once it's under Poland's influence (which is when it needs it). Perhaps a force limit reduction, some reduction in income, or increased minimum autonomy. Call it inefficient administration or something. This goes away on forming the Commonwealth - which obviously increases the efficiency of the administration. This keeps independent Lithuania strong, but union Lithuania nerfed - a good gameplay compromise.

 

[TheDungen]

Want me to name more things ? How do you think country can fight when its been in almost constant war for 50 years on diffrent fronts (if not war then rebellion). I said "uprising" not "uprisings". You can also read like Swedish forces were roll over in some battles by polish cavalry (most notable Kircholm 1605).

My comment really got your nationalistic ire all riled up didn't it?

 

[Arinsar]

My comment really got your nationalistic ire all riled up didn't it?

Say what ? Guess taking into account that in 1600-1650 there was like dozen rebellions, two wars with Sweden, war with Russia, war with Ottomans - thats just few other things. How do you think what effect does it have on the country ?

 

[TheDungen]

Say what ? Guess taking into account that in 1600-1650 there was like dozen rebellions, two wars with Sweden, war with Russia, war with Ottomans - thats just few other things. How do you think what effect does it have on the country ?

I really don't care about the specific case, hence why i had two examples (sweden and poland, and, england and france). My point was that there are things beyond population that detirmines the strenght of a nation. You're just listing examples of the point I'm trying to make.

 

[DanubianCossak]

Probably trolling the HOI4 forums since he's helping them with AI.

Ill have you know that trolling is an important part of the creative process.

 

[Korashy]

Ill have you know that trolling is an important part of the creative process.

Would you say it .... regenerates the body and mind?

 

[forrseti]

Just nerf the development of Lithuania and the ideas of Poland.

 

[yerm]

Want me to name more things ? How do you think country can fight when its been in almost constant war for 50 years on diffrent fronts (if not war then rebellion). I said "uprising" not "uprisings". You can also read like Swedish forces were roll over in some battles by polish cavalry (most notable Kircholm 1605).

So he posts that population isn't everything and that the ability to use and administer the land matters, and you counter with some chest thumping and a cited battle... where the Polish couldn't get the funds together to raise an army and they ended up outnumbered by the Swedes at home? It's just brilliant. Such absolutely blinding nationalism that you miss the post your reply was speaking to and make his argument for him!

 

[Vaximillian]

Just nerf the development of Lithuania and the ideas of Poland.

First yes, second no.

 

[Tufto]

I think it's fair to say that the development levels of the Golden Horde's land in 1444 still should be fairly low (relative to France) due to the disruption of Volga trade brought on by Timur. In the war between Timur and Tokhtamysh, Timurid armies razed Sarai and Astrakhan. Even before that point, I think it would be a bit of an exaggeration to call them the pinnacle of pre-industrial development, but I think that Yerm was being polemical (i.e. overstating or slightly exaggerating his case to emphasize a point) so we shouldn't get caught up on exact phrasing.

Overall though, I have to agree with Yerm that we have good reason to believe that the khans of the Golden Horde were interested in development of their provinces. In particular, they promoted agriculture, cattle breeding, cottage industries, and trade. In EU4 terms, Golden Horde lands would have fairly respectable production development (though I guess some unique Golden Horde national ideas with a trade power or production efficiency bonus could also fit). We have the most information on Kazan, which a couple decades prior to the game's start was part of the Golden Horde's patrimony. I'll start there.

According to Andreas Kappeler, "[T]he Khanate of Kazan did not differ significantly in its economic habits and socio-political organization, and with regard to the level of economic and cultural development, from the Muscovite state" in the early 16th century (The Russian Empire: A Multi-Ethnic History, pg. 25). We know that Volga Bulgar had a strong agricultural and commercial base before the Mongol conquest, but we also know that despite its sacking, the capital Great Bulgar grew ten times in size between the roughly two hundred year period between 1236 and 1445. Kazan was insignificant before the Mongol conquest but developed into a major city over the same period. While still under rule from Sarai, the city developed several libraries, archives, medreses, and a three-tier agriculture system (among large landowners but not tributary peasants). Moreover, goods "produced by the local economy [furs, leatherwork, shoemaking, jewelry, fish] grew throughout the history of the khanate and contributed to the emergence of Kazan as the most important and commercial center of the Volga basin" by the mid-16th century (Azade-Ayse Rorlich's The Volga Tatars: A Profile in National Resilience, pg. 30).

Kazan obviously reached the peak of its prosperity after independence from the Golden Horde (1445-1552), but the development did not begin in the 1440s. Whether or not we can prove that the Golden Horde's khans sincerely cared about developing provinces, I think we have to acknowledge that they had in place policies that at least enabled development because it was happening under the khanate's rule. Indeed, Charles Halperin argued that the Golden Horde's commercial policies enriched even Russian principalities (citing the growth of cities, construction of walls and churches, increases in silver left behind in wills, etc.) tied into the Volga trade network even when demographic trends (i.e. the Black Death) were working against urbanization. He wrote that, "There is every reason to believe that the international commerce the Mongols had fostered was a major cause of Russia's new urbanization and economic recovery. [...] By promoting trade for their own benefit, the Mongols, who had ravaged Russia and plunged it into economic depression, made possible Russia's recovery and new growth" in the 15th century (Russia and the Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History, pg. 83).

Note: Andreas Kappeler, Azade-Ayse Rorlich, and Charles Halperin (along with Michael Khodarkovsky, whom I didn't quote) are pretty much the leading English-language historians of the Volga region (well, Kappeler writes in German, but all of his stuff gets translated into English pretty quickly).

About the Golden Horde's non-Kazani provinces (the so-called "Lower Volga"), we know less. We know that Sarai was a major city with medreses, caravansarais, and a sophisticated water system (Rorlich, pg. 20). Other than that, we basically have to rely on Leonard Nedashkovskii (an archaeologist and anthropologist from Kazan State University) if we want information easily available in English. Fortunately, a few of his works are available online, like this one. In it, Nedashkovskii paints a picture highly reminiscent of what we know about the Kazani Khanate: the agricultural system was highly developed, the khans promoted and protected trade, a high amount of currency (likely silver) circulated in the economy due to "small retail trade" (presumably exchange of furs, leatherwork, and other cottage industry goods), and that the economy was built upon agriculture, cattle breeding, cottage industries, and trade. Moreover, he tells us that both urban craft goods and luxury items were obtainable to the rural and nomadic strata of the khanate's society - and importantly, in the Lower Volga, Transcaucasia (i.e. "the south Caucasus" to people outside the field), and the Crimea. In other words, the limited information we have on the economy of the Golden Horde suggests that the policies that fostered economic growth in the Kazani region were not anomalous for the economic policies/practices of the Golden Horde (even if Kazan was less directly ruled). Instead, these policies/practices that facilitated economic development applied to several distinct regions under the khanate's rule.

Anyway, I fear that we are pretty far off topic...

That was a really interesting post, thank you .

 

[DanubianCossak]

Would you say it .... regenerates the body and mind?

It does, but rumor is, Wiz doesnt have either.

 

[roy_d_merkel]

Yeah that was my point that they like with constantinople have given the province the development it would have had gotten in 1444 if it had never gotten sacked. I get why they do it, everyone has heard of kiev, the mother city of the rus and so on, like everyone knows about the great city of constantinople. But they were both basically ghost towns in 1444. They should have lower development, with increased chance of the urbanisation event (you know when a development moves to the capital from a rural province) to happen if they are the capitals, showing how they are still important ideological symbols if no longer great cities.

I suspect condtantinople is like this, though, so the Ottoman's can have a little something when they conquer it. Either that or so the BYZ tag isn't completely impossible...

 

[TheDungen]

I suspect condtantinople is like this, though, so the Ottoman's can have a little something when they conquer it. Either that or so the BYZ tag isn't completely impossible...

Probably both true but then again, the ottomans do get emperor tier from conquering it so...

 

[seriousgigi]

this one comes from common sense i mean BEFORE cossacks.

look at poor ottomans, they made an alliance with pope to take back constantinople from the beast.

even their fantastic alliances they have lost whole anatolia to beast

is there anyone still thinks that commonwealth is not op?

 

[birincikalite]

Anecdotal fallacies are not proofs.

 

[seriousgigi]

i don't remember that i said anything about proof? also i can post another 5 screenshots which comes from different games

 

[Tacticus101]

Out of interest, to those people who think the Commonwealth is OP: do you also regard Ottomans, France, Austria or Russia as OP when they manage their historical conquests?