Why does Lithuania have more development than France in 1444?

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Arinsar

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Lithuania being bigger than France is irrelevant. The area controlled by the Golden Horde in 1444 was arguably larger than the Kingdom of France too (depending on what you accept the assertion of Nogai independence). Nobody suggests making the Golden Horde comparable to France.



France was far more than 4-5 times more populous than Lithuania. A Concise History of the Baltic states cites the Grand Duchy of Lithuania controlling about 1.3 million people in 1500, although I've seen higher estimates at around 2.5 million. Comparatively, the population of the Kingdom of France in 1500 was about 16 million, meaning that they had about 8 times as many people. Obviously, people don't translate directly into development... but the link is relatively close, at least as far as say manpower is concerned.

Of course that size matters, thing is that Golden Horde was not intrested in development of their lands.
France population around 1500 was 20 millions compared to 7.5-8 millions of Poland + Lithuania (about 55-60% of that amout was population of Grand Duchy so do the math). There is diffrence between numbers of ethnic Lithuanians and population of whole area controled by them. Checking demographics doesnt take much time, of course numbers are estimated. Wealth of France came from type of goods they were producing, ability to tax their citizens (which wasnt so easy for Lithuania due larger territory and way more spread population and high level of local autonomy).
 
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Of course that size matters, thing is that Golden Horde was not intrested in development of their lands.
France population around 1500 was 20 millions compared to 7.5-8 millions of Poland + Lithuania (about 55-60% of that amout was population of Grand Duchy so do the math).

All the estimates I've seen for the PLC put Poland as having the larger share of population, not Lithuania - I provided a citation to this effect and can provide more if requested, whereas you are asserting. Additionally, you're confusing the area of modern France, which had around 20 million, with the area of the Kingdom of France (which was smaller), and accordingly had less people at around 16 million.
 
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Arinsar

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All the estimates I've seen for the PLC put Poland as having the larger share of population, not Lithuania - I provided a citation to this effect and can provide more if requested, whereas you are asserting. Additionally, you're confusing the area of modern France, which had around 20 million, with the area of the Kingdom of France (which was smaller), and accordingly had less people at around 16 million.

Population of Poland changed, more less untill Union of Lublin (1569), Lithuania population was slightly larger. With Union large parts of land were transfered to Polish Crown which put Poland ahead.
Population of Poland was more were more dense and number of larger cities was significantly bigger.
 
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zsImmortal

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Of course that size matters, thing is that Golden Horde was not intrested in development of their lands.
France population around 1500 was 20 millions compared to 7.5-8 millions of Poland + Lithuania (about 55-60% of that amout was population of Grand Duchy so do the math). There is diffrence between numbers of ethnic Lithuanians and population of whole area controled by them. Checking demographics doesnt take much time, of course numbers are estimated. Wealth of France came from type of goods they were producing, ability to tax their citizens (which wasnt so easy for Lithuania due larger territory and way more spread population and high level of local autonomy).

I don't know why you say the GH was not interested in developing their lands. It's not like they spent the whole year on campaign. Kazan, Sarai, Qrim and Astrakhan (to name those I know) were important urban centers and prosperous.
 
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Vaximillian

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Q: Why does Lithuania have more development than France in 1444?
A: Reasons.
 
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Arinsar

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I don't know why you say the GH was not interested in developing their lands. It's not like they spent the whole year on campaign. Kazan, Sarai, Qrim and Astrakhan (to name those I know) were important urban centers and prosperous.

Not saying that there was no cities there, but not like rulers of GH were primary intrested into improving production of their lands.
 
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yerm

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Not saying that there was no cities there, but not like rulers of GH were primary intrested into improving production of their lands.

Is this a joke? The leaders of the GH went from nomad to sedentary and built up the infrastructure to match and cities that far exceed almost any other. They built up agriculture and livestock production and moved goods far and wide. For a pre-industrial society they're near the top on development. New Sarai being a stone Metropolis that's feeding construction downriver after its destruction being built to that level from literally yurts... that's hardly the work of a disinterred ruling elite.

You basically have to buy into some kind of Mongols = savages stereotype to not think the Golden Horde was a big time internal developer.
 
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Atlantians

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Is this a joke? The leaders of the GH went from nomad to sedentary and built up the infrastructure to match and cities that far exceed almost any other. They built up agriculture and livestock production and moved goods far and wide. For a pre-industrial society they're near the top on development. New Sarai being a stone Metropolis that's feeding construction downriver after its destruction being built to that level from literally yurts... that's hardly the work of a disinterred ruling elite.

How do you know all this?
 

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France is so underpowered in EU 4 in terms of development it was mainly their sheer size and brilliant generals that allowed them to defeat English longbows as for plc their stremgth was not in their quantity which is poorly represented but in the quality of their cavalry hence to balance France should have more dev but England gets extra combat ability for duration of hyw while plc gets nerfed in dev but has increase in cavalry combat ability until 1650 or so
 
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How do you know all this?

I think it's fair to say that the development levels of the Golden Horde's land in 1444 still should be fairly low (relative to France) due to the disruption of Volga trade brought on by Timur. In the war between Timur and Tokhtamysh, Timurid armies razed Sarai and Astrakhan. Even before that point, I think it would be a bit of an exaggeration to call them the pinnacle of pre-industrial development, but I think that Yerm was being polemical (i.e. overstating or slightly exaggerating his case to emphasize a point) so we shouldn't get caught up on exact phrasing.

Overall though, I have to agree with Yerm that we have good reason to believe that the khans of the Golden Horde were interested in development of their provinces. In particular, they promoted agriculture, cattle breeding, cottage industries, and trade. In EU4 terms, Golden Horde lands would have fairly respectable production development (though I guess some unique Golden Horde national ideas with a trade power or production efficiency bonus could also fit). We have the most information on Kazan, which a couple decades prior to the game's start was part of the Golden Horde's patrimony. I'll start there.

According to Andreas Kappeler, "[T]he Khanate of Kazan did not differ significantly in its economic habits and socio-political organization, and with regard to the level of economic and cultural development, from the Muscovite state" in the early 16th century (The Russian Empire: A Multi-Ethnic History, pg. 25). We know that Volga Bulgar had a strong agricultural and commercial base before the Mongol conquest, but we also know that despite its sacking, the capital Great Bulgar grew ten times in size between the roughly two hundred year period between 1236 and 1445. Kazan was insignificant before the Mongol conquest but developed into a major city over the same period. While still under rule from Sarai, the city developed several libraries, archives, medreses, and a three-tier agriculture system (among large landowners but not tributary peasants). Moreover, goods "produced by the local economy [furs, leatherwork, shoemaking, jewelry, fish] grew throughout the history of the khanate and contributed to the emergence of Kazan as the most important and commercial center of the Volga basin" by the mid-16th century (Azade-Ayse Rorlich's The Volga Tatars: A Profile in National Resilience, pg. 30).

Kazan obviously reached the peak of its prosperity after independence from the Golden Horde (1445-1552), but the development did not begin in the 1440s. Whether or not we can prove that the Golden Horde's khans sincerely cared about developing provinces, I think we have to acknowledge that they had in place policies that at least enabled development because it was happening under the khanate's rule. Indeed, Charles Halperin argued that the Golden Horde's commercial policies enriched even Russian principalities (citing the growth of cities, construction of walls and churches, increases in silver left behind in wills, etc.) tied into the Volga trade network even when demographic trends (i.e. the Black Death) were working against urbanization. He wrote that, "There is every reason to believe that the international commerce the Mongols had fostered was a major cause of Russia's new urbanization and economic recovery. [...] By promoting trade for their own benefit, the Mongols, who had ravaged Russia and plunged it into economic depression, made possible Russia's recovery and new growth" in the 15th century (Russia and the Golden Horde: The Mongol Impact on Medieval Russian History, pg. 83).

Note: Andreas Kappeler, Azade-Ayse Rorlich, and Charles Halperin (along with Michael Khodarkovsky, whom I didn't quote) are pretty much the leading English-language historians of the Volga region (well, Kappeler writes in German and Khodarkovsky in Russian, but all of their stuff gets translated into English pretty quickly).

About the Golden Horde's non-Kazani provinces (the so-called "Lower Volga"), we know less. We know that Sarai was a major city with medreses, caravansarais, and a sophisticated water system (Rorlich, pg. 20). Other than that, we basically have to rely on Leonard Nedashkovskii (an archaeologist and anthropologist from Kazan State University) if we want information easily available in English. Fortunately, a few of his works are available online, like this one. In it, Nedashkovskii paints a picture highly reminiscent of what we know about the Kazani Khanate: the agricultural system was highly developed, the khans promoted and protected trade, a high amount of currency (likely silver) circulated in the economy due to "small retail trade" (presumably exchange of furs, leatherwork, and other cottage industry goods), and that the economy was built upon agriculture, cattle breeding, cottage industries, and trade. Moreover, he tells us that both urban craft goods and luxury items were obtainable to the rural and nomadic strata of the khanate's society - and importantly, in the Lower Volga, Transcaucasia (i.e. "the south Caucasus" to people outside the field), and the Crimea. In other words, the limited information we have on the economy of the Golden Horde suggests that the policies that fostered economic growth in the Kazani region were not anomalous for the economic policies/practices of the Golden Horde (even if Kazan was less directly ruled). Instead, these policies/practices that facilitated economic development applied to several distinct regions under the khanate's rule.

Anyway, I fear that we are pretty far off topic...

Edited for a typo...
 
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zsImmortal

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Anyway, I fear that we are pretty far off topic...

Not really, this is super fascinating. This is, in the end, a nitpicking thread. And good nitpicking requires proper information. It makes no real sense for Lithuania (of which half is somewhat newly integrated former Golden horde territory) to have well-developed provinces (this applies equally to Muscovy and other Rus principalities) while the Golden horde and successors live off of scraps. While the recent sacking by Timur could be somewhat relevant, Kiev being a metropolis while it was a backwater town for most of the game's period suggests such events are not relevant. Mind you, even if Timur's invasion was considered a valid reason, Edigu sacking a fair chunk of Rus territories (namely burning down Moscow) would then require equal treatment. So overall, the difference in land value depending on tech group (as Eastern Europeans have largely more valuable land compared to Hordes in the same region), especially considering the inherent autonomy slap to being 'nomadic', makes no real sense, especially when put into the context you put so eloquently.
 
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Krajzen

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Ahh this thread again! Yeah Lithuania is imo OP. But I said everything I should back in the previous thread.

Warning: long.

Lithuania having like 3rd development in the worls is incredibly retarded. In real life it was a paper tiger with very low population density, manufacturing, and barely a few decently sized cities (Vilnius, Kiev, Smolensk). When Poland and Lithuania were united, Kiev wasn't even in the top 5 cities inside the PLC regarding size - and in eu4 it is like among top20 global cities in the world 1444 regarding development.

Lithuania was being regularly overrun by far more numerous Muscovian armies and it needed Polish support to survive virtually every Moscovian invasion (starting since late 15th century) and even then it was barely surviving until 1650s when it couldn't get the help from PL and was completely massacred by Muscovy (Kiev lost, Vilnius burned etc)

The fact it is so strong in 1444_eu4_1.13 is one of the most ahistorical things in the game right now (next to the way India develops -never mughals, never hindu south, never sikh, always sultanates - and the map of southern half of Africa)


Poland wasn't particularly 'imperial' too, overall Poland+Lithuania was a regional but not continental powerhouse, but PL is roughly realistic in eu4.
(One thing that has always fascinated me in the history of PLC were its ridiculous problems with getting reasonable amount of soldiers for any operation against any enemy - seriously, it has been outnumbered in wars against Muscovy, outnumbered by Ottomans, okay that maybe makes sense, but royal PLC armies were also regularly outnumbered in a wars against Sweden (8x smaller population), Tatar hordes (even worse), Moldavia (!!!) and even its own internal rebels (mainly Cossacks). IIRC PLC army was outnumbered when it was facing the rebellion of DANZIG, one of its own cities :D )

To be honest that would make sense because Lithuania HAD smaller population and economic power than Muscovy, and I am not sure if it was not something like 2x smaller :D

This map shows the DENSITY OF URBAN NETWORK IN THE PLC

532px-The_density_of_the_urban_network_per_voivodeship_of_Polish%E2%80%93Lithuanian_Commonwealth_ca._1650.PNG


Look at this. The difference between the development of Poland-Lithuania (and they weren't super devloped like Benelux or N.Italy or parts of Germany) and Rus is enormous. Also please notice this map shows the administrative borders of voivodeships (provinces) of PLC and how gigantic Kievan province is compared to the small, urbanized western parts. In some literature from the period, this area is described as the 'wild fields' or 'wild steppes' and that's according to Eastern standards lol

I am from Poland and know PLC history decently and seriously, I have no idea why (seeing how long the history of ancient Kievan Rus was) but in eu4 times the lands of modern Ucraine were literally wild steppes with few cities (more like towns) scattered over a huge area, Kiev was like 6th biggest city in the PLC (which was generally badly urbanized!) and it was the only significant city of this part I can think of.

PLC pop estimations from 1500-1600 period point at 8-10 millions of people in the entire PLC (which had like 900 000km2 of area). That's mediocre density to begin with, and IIRC 60% of it was the Polish part (of course not all people here were Polish - in 1444 'Poland' I include Red Ruthenia being owned by Poland since 14th century + Jews, German settlers etc), next 10-15% was Lithuania, rest of it was poor Rus.
Meanwhile estimates for Muscovian population from this era go from early 15th century's minimum estimates of 5 millions to maximum estimates of 14 millions by 1600
(please note the fact Muscovy/Tsardom was quickly growing in territory in this era) so it's pretty safe to assume Muscovy in 1444 had either similar pop to Lithuania or significantly higher - and there were more grand cities under Moscovian control! Muscovy, Yaroslavl, Nizhny, Ryazan, Vladimir and more vs Vilnius and Kiev.

Thus in fact yes, it'd be pretty fitting to drastically remove Lithuanian development to be on similar or slighty lower level than Muscovy :D


Cezary Kulko in 'the demographics of PLC' estimates population density of PLC Ucraine on 3 people per km2 compared to 6-7 of Lithuania and 20 of Poland/Red Ruthenia. In 16th century. Later it increased... because seeing unused potential of it, the colonization by Poles/Jews/Germans/Lithuanians started.


I think the economic/demographic insignificance of Ucraine from that period may have something in common with Mongol invasions and chaotic Tartar rule - after all, Mongols ravaged this part of Rus and sacked Kiev, but northern principalities and cities (areas of Muscovy, Nizhny, Yaroslavl, Ryazan, Novgorod, Polotsk, Smolensk etc) avoided that fate and were merely peacefully growing tributaries.
 
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Ternega

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I feel the real reason behind lithuania being powerful as they are is balance - that is making sure neither Moscovy nor The Derp consume easter europe, the Emrah will likely protect Hungary, but w/o OP Lithuania, Poland would be consumed by Ottomans and Lithuania by Russia quite. quite rapidly.
 
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Krajzen

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I feel the real reason behind lithuania being powerful as they are is balance - that is making sure neither Moscovy nor The Derp consume easter europe, the Emrah will likely protect Hungary, but w/o OP Lithuania, Poland would be consumed by Ottomans and Lithuania by Russia quite. quite rapidly.

Firstly, the final result of OP Vilnius is as bad as this alternative :p
Secondly, ultimately the 1444 setup shouldn't be dictated by balance but by the (approximate) realism. Americas are incredibly underpowered compared to the West, just the way they were IRL. Okay maybe a bit too much :p

Thirdly, why reduce the entire Eastern Europe to the triangle of PLC-Ottos-Muscovy? Sometimes I'd like to see other powers here. Such as Sweden doing historical invasions. Or strong Prussia, Hungary, Bohemia, Kazan. Or Zaporozhie, Crimea, Moldavia. Or even Wallachia/Galicia/Chernigov/Smolensk/Polotsk/Kiev/Danzig. But all those tags are dominated by the absurdly overpowered Lithuania :(
 
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It's been issue for ages. Paradox devs said in other threads that they will not change it. So your option is to use exploits, abuses etc. to deal with crushingly overwhelming dev. value of Pol-Lit.
 
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Korashy

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Pre common sense there were tons of threads about how unhistorically poor Lith and Poland were. People were arguing about how Ukraine should be both because of black soil. But I agree Lith is too strong, they never have freaking high liberty desire either.
 

CrabHelmet

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Great post. One of the other things about the region that bugs is me is how Kazan is represented as a horde. It was a "khanate" in the sense it was ruled by a khan, yes, but almost the entirety of the Kazani territory was in the same broad swathe of dense forest that the Russian principalities were, with little steppeland to feed the necessary horses for a raid culture. They were a settled, agricultural peoples and indeed, the evidence have suggests they were raided more often than Muscovy was by their Nogai neighbours. As a political institution, Kazan was more similar to Muscovy than it was to the more southern Tatar realms. Additionally, Kazan is far too weak. In EU4 terms, IRL Kazan takes Nizhny province and a huge amount of "ducats" after defeating Muscovy in 1445, and has a narrow defeat in 1469 where it essentially conceded Nizhny back along with a number of "ducats". It's not until 1487 that Muscovy thoroughly defeats Kazan, and it didn't really annex territory, either, it was a vassalization.
 
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Buladelu

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This is the biggest country in Europe at a time. It has a good position for trade. It's justified for it to be as strong as it is.

Moreover, it needs all this development to be able to solve problems it historically solved for some times. You forget that it has *huge* internal problems. Most of the country is Orthodox while the true faith is Catholic. Huge part of the country is Russian so it will always have a problem while Russia exists. It doesn't have a political freedom. It may very well implode. Frankly I don't even think development level compensates all its problems so it's nowhere near France's power.
 
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